So shoot me, I didn't upgrade when Finale 27 came out. I have a mac running Finale 26 (for now, thanks). I NEED that upgrade to get XML 4.0 or a solution to get 30 years' worth of Mac Finale into XML that works. I have spent three decades working on the formatting and everything else, and need to rely on this to work. PLEASE MAKE THIS EASIER. I am a Middle School teacher and I need to be able to just do my work!!
Please contact me with a real solution. lorraine_davis@asl.org
TBH, XML 3.5 may be sufficiently good for many types of file.
However, I'd suggest that deliberately 'not choosing' Dorico, as some sort of rebuke to MakeMusic, is 'cutting your nose to spite your face'.
MM were always going to cease Finale. They could have just said "That's all, folks: find something else." Instead, they asked Steinberg to lower their entry price, in return for potentially large numbers of users. Blaming Steinberg for MM's inability to develop Finale makes no sense.
There's still time to try the demo. Watch some of the videos and give it a try; see if you like it. If not, there's always Sibelius or MuseScore.
But in the meantime: Finale will keep working for a few years yet.
A quick visit will show that there is plenty of valid and fair criticism of Dorico on its forums. And people readily give their time to help users who are learning it. Perhaps your own experience on the forum might not be applicable to everyone, for some reason....? ;-)
Ernest, you must spend more time posting about how terrible Dorico is, all over the internet, than actually using it...!
"Eventually (perhaps), the time will come when I will migrate. By then I hope (and would assume) Dorico and MuseScore will have upgraded their current software to be more in line with what Finale is today."
Firstly, I'd remind you that the offer to take up Dorico will expire at some point, so I'd suggest that you at least take the offer now, even if you don't plan to start learning Dorico immediately.
When you say "more in line", what do you mean? They certainly won't use Finale's user interface as a model..!! :lol:
Are you suggesting that Dorico is lacking in some way? There are several things that it can do which Finale can't (without a huge amount of manual work). It can cope with most standard music, from the Medieval to Stravinsky, as well as Jazz, educational worksheets, etc, etc.
There are some lacunae, certainly. Cutaway scores are still lacking, though the team have acknowledged that it's on their To Do list. But each new version comes with an impressive array of new features, and the team are responsive to user requests.
I would agree with Ernest that one should try all three alternatives to Finale--Sibelius, MuseScore, and Dorico--and I agree with him that the Dorico Forum is a marvel in its support from the Development Team and most all of its users. I would also say that I agree with Ben that the forum accepts useful criticism of the software, some of which the Development Team has taken to heart, but those who expect Dorico to rapidly transform into a Finale clone (or complain that it is not already) are being a bit unreasonable, and folks on the forum are not always reluctant to say so.
The Dorico forum has been under a lot of pressure lately with the number of posts occasioned by the influx of Finale alumni. That is a two-edged sword. We welcome the new users and realize they are unfamiliar with Dorico's structure and terminology, but those who used to read every post struggle to keep up (if they can at all), and that strain may make them more curt than they would like to be.
I started my switch from Finale to Dorico when it first came out in 2016. (Well, actually I started following Daniel Spreadbury's blog a couple of years before that, which helped understand how Dorico would be structured.) I knew from the struggles I had gone through to learn Finale in the late 1980's how long such a process would take. As Dorico became more capable, so did I, and I switched more of my work over to the newer program. Finale gave me the experience and confidence to look for work-arounds when Dorico couldn't do something, and I value my Finale experience.
I can recommend Dorico highly, but I realize that others may have different needs or other situations that lead them elsewhere.
Version 5 of MuseScore might be good—MuseGroup has promised all sorts of AI goodies to make it compete with the grownups, Finale, Sibelius and Dorico. MG wants it to be the de facto notation app for Hal Leonard, the largest music publisher in the world and wholly owned by MG since last December. Version 5 is not here yet so we'll have to wait and see. MuseGroup is quite profitable and intends for MuseScore to remain free.
Dorico has promised to be more Finale friendly in the future and made a stem in that direction with an update last week. I've downloaded it but haven't taken a look yet. Having owned Dorico since 2018, I've never been a convert. Christmas is my busiest season so am sticking with Finale for now but I have a large project due in 2025 and may decide to try it in Dorico to see if I can finally acclimate myself to the workflow — or not.
Sibelius is still the most "Finale like" if you can stand its workflow which I do not.
Ernie's constant Mac bashing and misinformation does not change this.
MikeH what you call "Mac bashing" is Mac fact. Your post this quote come froms confirms that. Look I am no MS or Windows lover I only try to use what is best and works best. This also includes price vs performance and usability. Mac fails in the first two miserably. The last, yes when it works it works just fine. If it's your cup of tea drink it hot or cold!
I have no preference over any OS since the app works essentially the same in either once it is running. I own an iphone and ipad but I will probably never go Mac for a computer until they stop screwing up the OS every time they update ot or at least make folks worry about an update.
As the guys and gals at Dorico you need to stop condemning the messenger when I criticize Mac as they do when I criticize Dorico. And to the Dorico fans here, I have not made up my mind yet. Dorico may be the one but it is not right now Sibelius is. I will keep my Dorico active as well as Sibelius and Finale until it finally dies.
Bottom line I still encourage everyone to get all three. If not buying like I did get the demso and of course MuseScore is free so why not.
Years ago—many years ago—I was Mac only.
The IIsi was my second computer, the first being a Kaypro 4-84, which I still have, along with my Synergy synthesizers.
When I taught computer literacy (Computer Information Science [CIS]) in college I was forced to use Microsoft OS which, at the time, was Windows ’95.
I encouraged students to buy Apple’s “Macinstosh” computers. Our college president hated Apple, kept saying it would die as a company, and refused to allow us to teach Mac classes.
Then Windows XP arrived. It was at the same time I needed to upgrade my computer.
My choices were to buy the newest Mac—at a very high price, or a generic “PC” running XP.
I chose the latter simply because that was the operating system in my work/teaching environment.
Since then, I have always avoided Mac.
Why? Price and because with each new generation of OS I would anticipate some of my programs (application) to lose compatibility.
To wit, concerns of Finale 27 with the latest Mac OS.
I do not want to have to learn a new music notation program. As long as I keep my current computer and have Finale 27, I think I will be satisfied.
When I do change (“if”), it will be to a program that uses musical terminology that is universal, that does not have outdated code embedded, that doesn’t cost too much for annual renewals, and that has an intuitive interface.
Meanwhile, I hope that some other company will see the value and potential worth of buying Finale and fixing all that needs fixin’
Just a thought…
:-)
Vanessa
Loraine,
The first thing you should do is to make sure that you have PDFs and XML of all files. XML isn't perfect especially when going from one brand of software to another I.E. Finale to Dorico. There is a batch XML file export in Finale that does a complete folder in one time. It is slow and it does have issues so it needs to be watched.
XML is designed so if it doesn't recognize some item it ignores it. XML will not convert headers, credits, graphics, ect. Dorico and Finale handle those totally differently. You will need to input those properly in Dorico.
Dear Ernest Biggs & David Maurand,
I could not be more embarrassed. What I wrote yesterday was under the misapprehension that you were both people working for MakeMusic/Finale/Dorico, and I was...angry and rude. Please accept my apologies for my behaviour, and my sincere gratitude for what I now realise was your genuine (and generous) attempt at helping me through the same difficulties you are also going through. I am really very sorry and ashamed. I wish both of you all the best with your music, and thank you for your helpful advice.
Lorraine
Hi, Loraine
Apology not necessary. You have a lot of music and the important thing is to preserve it. If you want to freeze a Mac but don't have an older one lying around, a 2014 MacMini (used or refurb) is only ~100 to 200 bucks.* You can share files over wifi or even a thumb drive. That's one idea - my general thought is that your opus is large and important; as moving it entails unnecessary bother and risk you might consider just staying with Finale.
*edit: plus a cheap monitor, keyboard, and mouse.
As David M opined no apology is necessary you are not the first to make that assumption. Especially since MM has abandoned the forum.
Just how big are your files? Being exercises I imagine they are not very large.
I could do the XML conversion for you again depending on file size. But again I will ask to what end? In my case I do expect to go to Sibelius in the not too close future. Not today or tomorrow but later on as I expect Sibelius will become the industry standard when everything finally settles down and is digested.
Let me know file size and we’ll proceed from there.
EB
Hi Lorraine,
Just a quick question here: have you downloaded the demos yet for Dorico and/or Sibellius (or any other scoring software)? Iask because I had the opposite experience from Ernest with Dorico and Sibellius: Sibellius was inscrutable and Dorico made total sense. There is one difference, perhaps, in our usage in that I am on a PC. But, in any event, do make sure that you try any demos that you can for any scoring software you may be considering. The "flow" of the individual packages is often very idiosyncratic and one may suit your thought patterns better than the others.
Hi all,
Just throwing my bonnet in the ring...
Lorraine, I think what Ernie said would be wise to consider:
"The cross platform upgrade option is available from both Dorico and Sibelius. It is $149 bucks and it includes Finale 27 for free."
Also, I am among a host of others that plan--at least for now--to continue using Finale. When time comes to update my computer, I will keep my current computer just for Finale. (BTW--I have Windows software.)
Eventually (perhaps), the time will come when I will migrate. By then I hope (and would assume) Dorico and MuseScore will have upgraded their current software to be more in line with what Finale is today.
If you are young enough to foresee a distant future with software other than Finale, then perhaps your best choice will be as others have said: keep your current Mac just for Finale when you buy your next computer.
Do you remember (or know about) floppy discs...
;-)
Vanessa,
There is no "Finale 27 for free" if you purchase the Sibelius cross-grade.
The free Finale 27 upgrade offer is exclusive to the Dorico 5 Pro purchase only.
Both offers are $149, but only the Dorico offer includes a free Finale 27 license and should be purchased from the Finale website. Also - if you already own Finale 27, you DO NOT get an additional Finale 27 license. (please post a correction if I am incorrect)
Lorraine - I'm not a Finale employee as you assumed above - just a long time user same as you... started with version 1 or 2 in the 80's. (multiple floppy discs for my Mac Plus and an Epson dot-matrix printer.)
... "more in line", what do you mean? They certainly won't use Finale's user interface as a model..!! :lol:
Don't "lol" too loudly. Sibelius is already more Finale like than Dorico and MuseScore says the next update will have a Finale-like option. Now exactly what that means or will be is unclear. Like I said previously I got to the same level of ability in Sibelius in about two hours of using it. It took over two weeks to get to that same level in Dorico because it is so convoluted and ambiguous. Nothing is familiar even the terminology seems foreign. Now, no one has to take my word for it, just get the demos from either and try yourself. Perhaps you will like the unforgiving structure of Dorico do it my way or not at all mind set.
I got a concert band score entered in both but Sibelius was far easier and more flexible. I thoroughly suspect Sibelius to become the industry standard when the dust all settles. My main issue with Sibelius is it is exactly like Finale. It is old legacy code with a master holding company that is nowhere as responsive as the Dorico folks are. If MM was that good perhaps we wouldn't be have this conversation. The best part of Dorico is the support they give believe me I used it a lot.
Get the demos from both and MuseScore and try yourself.
Is Sibelius sold only in a subscription model? I don't see any alternative to a perpetual license in their store. If so, I'm not interested and I won't even try this program. A yearly subscription in their store for Sibelius Ultimate costs 199 euros!! This is crazy! I'm fed up with companies that make their customers dependent in this way. It's enough to lose your income and you won't be able to do anything. Finale had a perpetual license. Although as it turns out MM fooled us, because it's not known until when you'll be able to activate the program. Paying and being honest, as you can see, makes limited sense, and the nasty pirates are often right. I bought Dorico, but I think I'll lean towards Muse
Sibelius had the same deal as Dorico. Sibelius has a $149 crossgrade offer for the Sibelius Ultimate perpetual licence.
Every Mac made between 2012 and the new ones introduced this week will run Finale 27. Period. Ernie's constant Mac bashing and misinformation does not change this. Not all will run 26 which has difficulties in Sonoma and Sequoia. MM has announced that there will be no support for Sequoia which is too bad but 27 runs great over it.
I will post in a new thread how to make an external drive that will boot any of those 2012–2025 Macs for running 27. It's a bit involved and not intuitive but I did it successfully a few weeks ago. Whether it will work on Macs introduced after October 2026 is something that no one will know till then.
Sorry to be MIA for the last few weeks but a support call to Apple turned into a consulting project that tied up my time and resources till yesterday. I'm not quite done as there are still reports to write. The next release of Sequoia should be better but none of that affects how well 27 runs over it.
Contrary to some opinions, MM does check in on these boards now and then. Am I the only one who's noticed that some threads with outrageous posts have been deleted?
For a smooth Dorico experience, it is better to set up your house styles in advance, and develop master page sets to work with your most common type of project. In my case, I had to learn what to do with Dorico's 'flow' method (usually called a 'cue' or 'movement' in musical practice). Once set up, a clean xml import can be production-ready in minutes without much fiddling. I have moved more of my opus than planned, because this is now like shooting fish in a barrel of low-hanging fruit.
There are a few things Dorico doesn't do, but they have acknowledged this, and stated their intent to make these features available. But we have long complained that there is a whole lot that Finale doesn't do without great effort (or at all), things that Dorico handles with one-click ease. In my case, Dorico solves problems specific to me, so I am happier with Dorico than I planned on being. It has even become easy now.
Everyone should try what's on offer and decide what works for you. Today we come at any of these full-fledged options with our own house styles, accompanied by the notation knowledge we have gained along the way, finished by the unique practices we have developed. Sibelius and Dorico are both fully capable - and Finale will remains so for a good long while.
Nessa,
I have always tried to gp Mac but yes the price was the biggest ad first trunm off. The ridiculous OS nonsense is second. My last PC a full on gaming computer cost half for what the equivalent Mac did. I did a side by side component vs component comparison. Personally I have no favorite as I don't have any love lost at MS.
Your second thought just about kills Dorico or Sibelius. Dorico has it own language and is quite confusing. I've completed three scores in it now and I could use it but I am very slow. Most of it doesn't stick because of the thermology. And, Sibelius is almost a sold as Finale and is run by a company almost as bad as MM is. This means legacy code and little support. LilyPond is a joke. That leaves MuseScore 5 which is supposed to come out soon. It is supposed to be more Finale like so we'll see.
Bottom line any of these can do a basic score as long as you let the app do it as it wants to. Best part about Dorico is they listen and they respond if MM was as good I doubt Finale would be dead.
No extra charge tip:.....................
Always make an XML of your work along with a PDF and print out a hard copy. That's the only safe way.
Take care,
EB
Hi Ernie,
As always, thank you for your insights.
One of my other concerns that I should have mentioned, and about which I have seen little discussion, is the use of sound libraries.
These days I mostly use NotePerformer, though I also use my set of libraries from Garritan.
How compatible are these with the other programs, and do they have their own set of libraries?
:-)
Nessa
Both Dorico and Sibelius can use NotePerformer 4. Dorico can use Garritan but I have not tried to use Garritan in Sibelius. The native sounds in either is poor so I always use NP4. For supplied sounds the very best is MuseScore 4. Plus the MuseScore 4 mixer is the best of the three.
I urge you to d/l the demos and try them. MuseScore is free. Sibelius is of the same generation as Finale and is most like Finale. It uses the mouse a lot. Dorico hates the mouse and wants you to use keyboard hot keys. That's fine but I find myself right clicking all the time and of course nothing happens. The Dorico Quick Reference Card (which is a must) is three pages lone so much for "quick" reference. And the Popover Reference sheet is 15 pages long.
Ernie, the PC equivalent to my M2 Ultra Mac costs between $36,000 — $85,000 depending on exactly how it is set up. Of course, either platform is way overkill for Finale but for some of my work, such hardware is absolutely necessary. When I bought its predecessor, the equivalent PCs went for up to $150,000.
https://boxx.com/solutions/ai-workstations#tagForProducts
If you want me to stop criticising your Mac posts, it's easy. Stop posting what you do not know. Problem solved. You do not understand the hardware, its capabilities nor what people can do with it and by your own admission haven't owned one in years.
We're here to help people get through Finale best we can. Your ignorant Mac bashing and made up statistics help no one.
Please stick to notation apps.
Response to Doug Bakkum: Your response explains that you are holding 30 years' worth of my intellectual property ransom until I pay for Dorico. I want to export everything to XML and leave the party entirely. You will not have a penny from me, but I want all of my intellectual property. I cannot export things to XML 4.0 in my version of Finale. I need just the ability to export my files in XML 4.0 and then I want to leave without going near Dorico.
Response to Ernest Biggs: I have 135 folders of my work in Finale. I want every detail to work. As a teacher, I spend hours formatting and working on layout so even my most dyslexic student can read their music. I work so hard at this! I need the people at Make Music to acknowledge (and support) teachers like me who use these tools as TOOLS - not out of interest in technology or even in composition. I use notation software to create exercises, warm-ups, and simplified parts for students who need extra educational support in order to participate in a music ensemble. I need to rely on my tools to get the job done for the next class.
I need to draw on the last 30 years' worth of worksheets, exercises, warm-ups, and simplified parts to be able to help a kid - not spend the HOURS I already spent making those resources making them (or even fixing them) all over again. And the more time my colleagues and I have to devote to this technological disaster of a "crossgrade," the less time I have to devote to teaching a kid who needs me to help them.
SO how long do you think it'll take me to export my 135 files of Finale AND then reformat it all in a new, unfamiliar program? Do you reckon that will affect any children at my school because their teacher's resources are all gone and the teacher is stressed? The way this is being handled is absolutely painful. Any help would still be appreciated (e.g. a simpler, more effective, free way to export all of my files without a commitment to your new program).
I just want to teach.
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