Sounds reasonable. If it will ever happen, who knows?

If just writing out the notes on a grand staff is not clearer, then presumably lyrics could be used for the extra info; so like Mike, I don't see this arriving any time soon.

Dear Adrian,

Thank you for your comment with regard to my request. Anybody would readily agree with you that the grand staff gives a complete picture of the music so much so that even the polyphony motions could be clearly notated there. However, I am contemplating situations where space and time could be saved. Let us consider, for example, a chord and lyric alone presentation of a music. The above arrangement would be of great help in such a situation.

Moreover, Let us consider the notational systems which are purely text based, such as Carnatic Music in Southern India. Finale would be of a great assistance for such systems whereby using the 'Chords and Lyrics Only' option available, Finale could be very effectively used as though it is a Carnatic Notational software. In fact, I have been using Finale with such an end, because Finale has a very versatile support for Lyrics.

Again you are right in pointing out that the wanted extra information could be given via the lyrics assignment tool. In fact, you would notice that I have proposed the feature in Finale, ironically using Finale itself.

However, there is a minor limitation with regard to the Lyric assignment tool to be used for giving extra information to chords. That is the main reason, I have posted this query. Please note that Finale, understandably, allows assignment of a lyric only to a note-head. Thus in the above illustration, the C (of Minim value) could be assigned with only one lyric syllable whereas, on the contrary, there are two chords assigned to the note. I have no way to input the lyric as extra information to the second chord of C viz. IV through Lyric tool. That is why, I have tied two crotchets to make a minim to achieve my end. 

You may claim that Text tool could be utilised in such situations. Yes, it is quite possible. But on occasions when I rearrange the number of bars in a line, the text boxes do not move along with the chords. Thus I need to move them manually. Thus, if the extra information is associated with the Chord itself, the work would be smooth and fast.

Hope you would bear with me for such a long comment.

You could still do it. Just assign the second line of "lyrics" to verse 2. You can easily switch between verses 1 and 2 with the up and down arrows.

Arulmani,

Thank you for your explanation. If you can convince Finale to make this change, more power to you. In the meantime, Mike's solution seems the easiest to implement.

From my standpoint, were I presented with such notation to sight-read, I would likely just grab the appropriate chord as best I could, trying to use the appropriate inversion (bass) if possible and then just letting my fingers find the most appropriate voice leading from habit. Unless your players are well versed in this system, I would anticipate more confusion than clarity, unless you have ample rehearsal time, which in my experience, players seldom have. But one always hopes that Finale can do what you want it to, regardless of whether it is "standard."

Thank you Mike and Adrian for your valuable suggestion regarding the effective use of 2 lines of lyric. It works. In fact, Finale accepts more than one lyric for a note-head placing them one over the other and I am able to move the top layer farther away. However, using different lines of lyric gives more control over moving the numbers at ones will. See the illustration below. I have placed the numbers as such to separate them as left and write hand playing.

Thus, you have helped me to find a solution for which I approached this forum. However, I like to continue with this for a while to make my original appeal of Finale providing a chord format which would include further information in itself. I shall continue in another submission.

I am back after a little break. I make this appeal with a particular project in mind. Unlike the western churches where every one is provided with the hymnal with full notation, in Tamilnadu, India, where I come from, the faithful are provided with hymn books that carry only lyrics. The organists manage to play the hymns by hearing the audio that are available on the net. Thus notation books are rare indeed.

I have, for a long time, wanted that every faithful is provided with the notation. While the European faithful are familiar with the western notation system, the faithful here are yet to be introduced to such a climate. The text notation method of Carnatic Music would be the natural option, to be practical. However, I want to provide some detail which are given in grand staff of western music. Thus if I give the raw information such as I have proposed, the faithful, as well as the organists would be helped, I presume.

For example, I could provide the above one bar in the Indian context as follows:
However, I like to take the comment of Adrian seriously. According to him, the numbers would confuse rather than clarify. First of all, the situation is not that the organist would sight-read. However, I grant that a system proposed should be of help even at sight-reading situations. 

To be honest, I would prefer the degrees of THE CHORD than the degrees of THE SCALE. Incidentally,, the chords are named after the DEGREES OF THE CHORD, rather than the degrees of the scale. For example, G7 in C major has F as its seventh note whereas F is the 4th degree of the scale. When I see a Chord, my mind tends to revolve around the degrees of the chord and my mind recognises F as the 7th degree of G7 rather than the 4th degree of the scale. G7 would be the same in whatever scale it appears. Thus, after some initiation in to the system, a player would be comfortable because irrespective of the scale he is in, he would have to play the same way all the time.

I want to make a difference between the Roman Numeral Chord and the Chord Name system.The Roman numeral chords would carry the degrees of the THE SCALE and the Chord-name would carry the degrees of the CHORD.

See below the illustration of the above example with Chord Names and Chord Degrees. 

I would respond further after learning your comments.

Arulmani, you've gone past my understanding. You have obviously managed to do what you want in your samples. If I were you, I would continue as you have been. Finale will, in all probability, never accommodate that style of notation in the chord tool.

Dear Mike,

Thank you for your response. As I pointed out earlier in my earlier post, I have found a solution for what I approached this forum.

However, I still am convinced that such a provision is valuable in another perspective. When I input a chord in Finale, I have no clue whatsoever, what tones and in what order it uses to produce the sound of a particular chord. When I play  the chord C in various forms of root position such as C(1351, 1513, 1135,1153), I could hear the difference in a piano. When I do not insert a chord, Finale, of course, produces the exact sound what is input in the Grand staff. Likewise, I like that Finale has a provision in a chord format, where I could hear the sound as though I have input them in a grand staff. It would help because I would know how the chords would sound in a piano.

… To be honest, I would prefer the degrees of THE CHORD than the degrees of THE SCALE. Incidentally, the chords are named after the DEGREES OF THE CHORD, rather than the degrees of the scale. For example, G7 in C major has F as its seventh note whereas F is the 4th degree of the scale. When I see a Chord, my mind tends to revolve around the degrees of the chord and my mind recognises F as the 7th degree of G7 rather than the 4th degree of the scale. G7 would be the same in whatever scale it appears. Thus, after some initiation in to the system, a player would be comfortable because irrespective of the scale he is in, he is to play the same way all the time …

Arulmani,

If I understand you correctly, your preferred notation (with chord degrees) can be done as chord suffixes (using the Chord Suffix Editor).

You will have to create several duplicate copies of each suffix, one copy for each voicing.

It will be a time consuming task, but you only have to do it once:

Save your custom suffixes as a library, and load that library into the template(s) you use when creating new documents.

The attached example was created with the Chord Tool.

The example uses three different suffixes; the 2nd suffix (on D) and the 4th suffix (on C) are the same suffix, on two different roots. The 3rd suffix includes the letter ‘m’ (the suffix includes four digits and one letter).

NB:

For precision layout like this, do yourself a favour, and set the Measurement Units to something small, like Points or EVPUs.

Dear Peter, 

Thank you for the new avenue that you have opened up. I have been reluctant to walk that path because I was scared that I would cause malfunction of Finale. I think I should venture in to it now. I foresee that I would take longer time. It looks somewhat complicated. All the same, I am referring to the help files and I hope I would get around it soon.

Dear Peter,

I never imagined that I would return so soon to the forum. The solution has been just a few clicks away. When you talked about voicing, saving to a library, and loading it, I was imagining that the task would be very tedious. Moreover, when you talked about measurement units, I was really scared that I need to have very technical knowledge. 

However, the solution was as though it is a kid's play. I don't know whether what I have done is proper. But, it has worked. After typing the normal way the Chord name, I pressed the up arrow and Finale showed a blinking cursor just above the Chord Name. I entered 13 there. Then encouraged by your post, I just clicked ok at the dialogue box. Finale just accepted it without any remarks. When I pressed the up arrow again, Finale again showed a cursor even above the earlier number. Now, I entered 51 thinking that I need to create all possible combinations. Now the dialogue box proposed just 5. I took in that any new number will have to be saved. Then, I moved the two sets of numbers to the desired places.

Now, for the second chord, following the above procedure, I just clicked ok in the dialogue boxes without bothering about what number it proposed basing myself on the first experience and I was able to create the chord suffixes the way I wanted.

I have not entered every possible combination. Later on when I need to insert a new number, Finale would ask whether to add to the library and I will have to just ok it, in all probability.  

Now, I created a new document and tested the already saved number, Finale just inserts it. Thus I need not to worry to have a template where a particular library has to be loaded.

Hope this is ok technically. Below is the sample I created following the above procedure.

Arulmani,

If I have scared you, then I apologize.

I thought that you knew the about the Chord Suffix Editor, and about how to change the program’s Measurement Units.

I recommend using small measurement units, like Points or EVPUs - the layout values will be much simpler.

1) I recommend that you take a good look at both the Chord Suffix Editor, and the (sub-)menu Measurement Units.

If you can not find them, use the online manual’s Search function, and you will find an explanation on, “how to get there”.

2) Rather than adding the numbers individually you can save time by having all the characters in one suffix.

In the Chord Suffix Editor you can set the precise positioning for each character in the suffix.

This means that you will not have to “move sets of numbers to the desired places”.

If you study my example, you will see a single suffix containing four digits and one letter (all perfectly positioned):

53

m

13

3) Chord suffixes are document specific, not program specific.

“… Now, I created a new document and tested the already saved number, Finale just inserts it. Thus I need not to worry to have a template where a particular library has to be loaded …”

This does not make sense.

To have your custom chord suffixes available in all new documents the suffixes must be included in the template you use when creating new documents.

* There are three folders where Finale stores template documents:

A. the Templates folder. This folder is shown when you choose File menu > New > Document From Template…

B. the Document Styles folder. This folder is used by the Document Setup Wizard.

C. the Default Files folder. This folder contains some default documents, and you can add your own Finale document to this folder. In the Preferences you can specify, which of the documents in the Default Files folder Finale should use, when you choose File menu > New > Default Document. If you have not specified a Default Document, then Finale will use the document Maestro Font Default.

Dear Peter,

Thank you for your valuable information that the suffixes are document specific. In my previous post, I said that the new document accepted the suffixes that I had saved. In fact, I entered only 13 to test my assertion and the new document, indeed, inserted it. And, from that, I concluded that the changes are program specific. I presume that Finale has a default suffix 13. Now that I have checked, I realise that the suffixes are, indeed, document specific.

I had made some attempts some years back to experiment with the suffix editor tool. The problem with the editor is that it proposes to add the suffix to the library, before I see the results. The lyric tool, for instance, is such that one can boldly make any number of experiments and at the end leave the document unsaved. On the contrary, suffix tool scares a user, at least me in the past. Thus what I would suggest is that the editor can just inform the user in words such as 'the suffix is not found in the library. DO YOU WANT TO PROCEED? This would not scare a person that he is going to save something (permanently?), the result of which is obscure to him/her at this juncture.

Even better is that the tool could allow a person to freely experiment with the tools and if the user is confident that he has to save it, he would do it. Finale could ask the user, at the time of saving, whether he wants Finale to save the non-standard suffixes to the library. In this arrangement, an user will not rely too much on the help files. On the contrary, he would freely find out solutions with trial and error method.

To come to the point of discussion, your last post was indeed very specific saying that I should enter all the four digits at a time and I have found out how Finale works.

I used the measurements as follows: I gave the measurements (H: -0.2, V:-0.2), (H: -0.1, V:-0.2), (H: -0.1, V: 0) and (H: 0, V: 0) for the four digits respectively, after the initial trials of various other measurements and subsequently for every four digits I followed the same pattern of measurements. The result is as follows: 

Thus I have arrived at the solution with much satisfaction. Thank you each one of you who have contributed towards my finding the solution. I realise that Finale is a versatile programme in every respect and it is highly flexible to meet diverse needs. I imagine, for example, that if I replace the Times New Roman font with a custom font, I can even provide the octave information in the chord symbols.

I feel that Finale can go one step further by giving the user more control over the sounds that he wants the chord to produce, as is the case with the Grand Staff. What I mean is, the chord should produce only the sounds that are input as information in the Chord Symbol. I look forward to a day that I would not need the grand staff for Finale to analyse and insert the appropriate Chord Symbol. It would be the other way around. The chord would produce a sound by the information that it carries in itself. Hope my expectation is not totally out of the way.

Arulmani,

1) When you experiment with a Finale document, you can Undo your actions:

Edit menu > Undo

I recommend that you go to

Preferences - Edit

and customise the Undo options there.

… I used the measurements as follows: I gave the measurements (H: -0.2, V:-0.2), (H: -0.1, V:-0.2), (H: -0.1, V: 0) and (H: 0, V: 0) for the four digits respectively …

Your info about measurements do not tell much since you have not revealed the Measurement Units.

Take a look in the sub-menu Measurement Units.

However, since your measurement values are small (= tenths), I suspect that the Measurement Units are big, like e. g. Inches or Picas.

By choosing smaller Measurement Units (like Points or EVPUs) you can get bigger values.

If you choose Points, you can get values like (H: -18, V: -9). Much nicer for precision layout.

… I feel that Finale can go one step further by giving the user more control over the sounds he wants the chord to produce as is the case with the Grand Staff. What I mean is, the chord should produce only the sounds that are input as information in the Chord Symbol. I look forward to a day that I would not need the grand staff for Finale to analyse and insert the appropriate Chord Symbol. It would be the other way about. The chord would produce a sound by the information that it carries in itself. Hope my expectation is not totally out of the way …

I am not sure I understand.

Do you mean the playback instrument for chord symbols (such as e. g. Acoustic Guitar)? Finale can do that.

Or do you mean the playback intervals in the suffix? Finale can do that, too.

Dear Peter,

Thank you for directing me to areas of relevance. In the preference section on edit tells me that I can have unlimited number of undos and even I can undo what is already saved in the current session. I do see that Finale has enough and more tools to take control of what one does. However, I feel that a beginner, who is rather unaware of the power of Finale, will not be comfortable with saving something before he sees the results.

I checked the measurement units (Finale/measurement units) and I found that inches was ticked. However, in the edit preferences (Finale/preferences/edit), the space was selected. Now that I have preferred 'points' as the unit in the edit preferences, the corresponding measurements in points is as follows: (H: -14.5, V: -14.5), (H: -7.25, V: -14.5),(H: -7.25, V: 0) and (H: 0 V: -0). Thank you for your observation and recommendation.

I mean the playback pitches in the suffix. I had never doubted that Finale outputs the pitches to the least detail in the suffixes. But my problem is as follows: (At the outset, please note that I am not an expert in Music Theory. I have done only 8 grades of Western Music Theory in the Trinity School, London, which is a certificate course equivalent to the first year level syllabus in under graduation. Thus I may sound naive.) 

To my mind, a particular chord name stands for the total effect of pitches that three or four or more tones produce together. For example, the Chord name C stands for CEGC, CGCE, CCEG, CGEC, CGGE, CEGG and even some 3rd doubled forms permitted in interrupted cadences in minor scales. Now when I input one of the above forms in the Grand Staff, I 'know' what Finale outputs, because I see it in the grand staff. But when I have just a melody in G clef and I assign C chord, I 'do not know' what form Finale outputs in the current context. Thus I expect a chord format where even if I have a format such as CECC (without G), for example, Finale should output only these tones in that order. In other words, the chords should behave like the grand staff. 

Of course, the current facility has to be maintained and made available for rich effect. However, an optional facility to the effect of my request could be added so that one could prepare a document with the G clef alone with the rules of the progression applied. Hope I am not sounding absurd.

Arulmani,

Finale can only assign one playback to a suffix.

This is done by clicking the button “Set Play…” in the Chord Suffix Editor.

If I understand you correctly, you need the same chord suffix to play back different versions of the same chord, depending on the context, right?

Finale can not do that.

As a workaround you could use several copies of the same suffix, each copy with different playback.

Or (perhaps easier) de-select chord playback (look in the Chord menu), and instead enter playback notes in a hidden layer.

Dear Peter,

Thank you for drawing my attention to the 'set play' aspect of the chord tool. In a default finale document, Finale interprets the chords correctly as I play. However, in the document that I have created with the suffixes, it interprets out of the way. Thus, I presume that Finale does not interpret my numbers as the degrees of the chord. 

However, inspite of the custom numbers, Finale does accept the chord names along with the numbers and plays back correctly. Thus I am content with the present scenario.

I inspected the 'chord definition' dialogue box for inverted chords in the default documents and I found that, in such cases, Finale applies the appropriate SCALE DEGREE as the ALTERNATE bass. Thus, following its pattern, I manually applied the appropriate bass as the scale degree for inverted chords to make sure that Finale interprets it as an inverted chord. I preferred not to multiply information in one chord. Thus, for example, in the C/G chord I just have used C as the chord, since the suffix 5 (the chord degree) carries in it the bass information; However, I manually add that information as the  Alternate Bass. I presume that Finale recognises it as a second inversion Chord. For your inspection I am sending a link to the Finale Document, as well, along with this post.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FZhA6yEBtJam3lXs3AShVltFJioUwAxy/view?usp=sharing

Arulmani,

I have examined your Finale document.

1) In your suffix m1135 the playback is not correct; try e. g. this:

2) For the chord with the Alternate Bass, beware the panel Play:

Dear Peter,

Thank you for drawing my attention to the crucial 'suffix key number offsets' tool. I consider that this 'offsets' can help me to achieve what I look for. Please let me know whether I have understood how it works by examining the finale file to which I have given a link.

By fixing the tones of the middle octave as 0 pitch and counting quarter pitches left and right. I tell Finale to produce the sounds of those tones that make up the chord.

To help the player to identify the bass note I use backward and forward slashes at the first number which indicates the degree of the chord. Thus when a player sees \1351G, he would understand that the bass is the G at the 'LOW' octave. If the chord format is \\1135A, for example, the player would understand that the bass note is A in the 'LOWER' octave. Accordingly, if a piece IS in higher octaves, the chords may involve bass notes in middle octave or the high and higher octaves. In such cases, I would use forward slashes before the bass note. Finale also would understand that it is a chord with different suffixes. 

I have worked on only the first line of the Chorale of Robert Schumann. After your feedback, I would continue more enlightened to complete it. Below I give the portion of the piece in png and the link for the Finale Document.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yoQ6NCxXclCf4Q5AfRAQyYykHh2jHjZ7/view?usp=sharing

Arulmani,

Sorry about the late reply - I have been busy.

I suppose that you are talking “Finale-speak” - right?

So that “chord tool” is the Chord Tool in Finale, “suffix” is Suffix in Finale, &c. - right?

In the Chord Tool the playback has two components:

- the Suffix = all the chord tones above the Bass tone

- the Bass tone

In Other Words:

The Suffix does not control the playback of the Bass tone.

The Bass tone is not included in the Suffix.

By editing the Suffix you can control all the other chord tones, but not the playback of the Bass tone.

You wrote:

“a chord with different suffixes”

But this is not possible.

A chord symbol with one Suffix is possible, but not a chord symbol with multiple Suffixes.

In each chord symbol you can only have one Suffix.

I am not sure I understand your Finale document with the Chorale by Robert Schumann.

* In the Finale document you posted, do the chord symbols play back as needed?

Dear Peter,

Thank you for your response. I took some time to learn how the chord tool works in Finale.

Thank you for the valuable information that the chord tool has two components viz. the bass and the suffix and the more important information that the suffix does not contain the bass. I wonder whether you mean the root when you talk about the bass.

I employed the technique of exporting the finale files to midi and again opening it as a score. Thus, I have a glimpse of what is going on in the background when the chord tool is at work. 

First, I just inserted chords in G Major pertaining to the first part of the Chorale.

The resulting midi output opened as a score is the following:

From this I noted down the register of the Roots of the chords. I tried to lower the register of Roots by an octave in the 'Chord Definition' dialogue box without any success. Then by knowing the pitch of the Roots, I input my custom suffixes. The chord suffixes are as the following:

When I said in my previous post that Finale accepts two different suffixes for the same chord what I meant was, say \1351G  and \153G. These two suffixes indicate the same chord just as Gm7 and G-7 are one and the same chord with different suffixes. I understand that Finale does not accept two different suffixes simultaneously in one format.

The output of the above score via midi is the following:

The edited version of the above is as following:

In the above output of the suffixes that I have used, one can see that I could not take control of the Root D in the upper octave and the Root G in the middle octave.

By this I can more or less check the output of my custom suffixes via the midi export tool. Please note that I am not able to take control of the Root. However, I am able to pin point the bass, I suppose.

You may Kindly enlighten me further.

Meanwhile, I notice that there is a Fretboard Editor in the 'Chord Definition' tool where one can input the notes of the chord in a wyswyg manner. I wonder whether Finale could provide such a Piano Editor so that one can just put the notes of the chords wyswyg in the piano board and accordingly Finale can output the Chord symbol.

The purpose is to input the music fast and get the resulting sound in Finale offhand. Hope you understand.

Below is the new version of the file.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1AG40jMFIUV1W55p4J8WnTkheNVC0txN4

… I wonder whether you mean the root, when you talk about the bass …

When I talk abou the Bass, I mean the lowest tone (pitch).

It depends on whether there is an Alternate Bass.

When there is not an Alternate Bass, then the Root is the Bass.

When there is an Alternate Bass, then the Alternate Bass is the Bass.

Example:

In the chord symbol A7/E the Root is A, but the Bass is E.

In the playback, make sure that Finale is playing the Alternate Bass.

Note that you can de-select the playback of the Root.

The suffixes \1351 and \1513 are - in “Finale-speak” - two different suffixes.

You may say that they are the same chord, but in “Finale-speak” they are two different chords.

(And in playback they are definitely not identical)

Since \1351 and \1513 are two different suffixes, you can edit them, and give them different playback.

Dear Peter,

Thank you for the step by step guidance. I see that the alternate bass input is vital for Finale to display the chord as an inversion viz. A7/E. 

Please enlighten me about how I could change the default register of the root of chords. For example, I wanted to change the register of the root G (G4 - middle G) to the lower G (G3) and the D5 to D4 (middle D). However, the 'listen' tool does not help. How do I change the register so that the melody line will be always on the top. Now, the D5 is above the melody line.

Arulmani,

I could be wrong here, but I see no way to control the Bass tone’s octave level, sorry.

Workarounds:

1) De-select the playback of the Bass, and add the Bass to the Suffix (as a low tone in the Suffix playback).

2) De-select the playback of chord symbols (look at the bottom of the Chord menu), and instead enter playback notes in a hidden layer. (= what I would do)

Dear Peter, 

Thank you for your recommendations.

I have been busy working on the Corale amidst other commitments. That's how I am late to attend to this forum.

I changed my mind in two respects that caused that I had to redo the whole work twice. Firstly, I changed the octave indicator symbols from back slash(\) and forward slash (/) to the left pointing and right pointing arrows.

Secondly, I decided not to include the bass information in the suffixes for two reasons. The width of the suffixes may be reduced and the duplication of information will be avoided.

The chord names have information in them, thus the chord G, for example, has the information in it that the root is at the bass. Likewise G/B implies that B is at the bass. Thus, I reduced the four numbers that indicate the degrees of scales to three and thus, the width will be smaller and the duplication of information would be avoided. 

You had already suggested earlier during this chat, that I could use the grand staff and then hide it while muting the chord playback. I was reluctant to follow it, just because the layout would be simpler to work with if I could just use the G clef alone. However, since, the chord tool is designed in a different way, I decided to follow your suggestion and accordingly I am setting my mind on it.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1KWYdRQsjHY3cuuTAUUAiS0t1I1zKQq7l

Arulmani,

It looks fine.

1) If you - after hiding the lower staff - prefer to hide the Alto, so that only the Soprano displays, put the Alto in another Layer, and use a custom staff style to hide the Alto’s Layer.

2) To reduce the chord symbol width you could write C6 instead of Am7/C.

Dear Peter,

Thank you for your suggestions. I am able to hide the  bass clef and I am able to hide the 1st layer viz. the soprano. But I could not succeed in hiding the 2nd layer or Alto. There seems to be only two options in the staff style viz. to hide the 1st and the 4th layers.

Could you guide me through?

To hide Layer 2, create a (new) custom Staff Style:

Dear Peter,

I am sorry that I could not attend to the forum due to some other schedules.

Thank you for your kind illustration of the custom staff style. I  was able to create such styles and I have worked on a simple hymn. I see that the suffix editor is very flexible and I am able to have more control over the positions of the suffixes. Thus I have tried another format of the Chord which is narrower. In this format I have avoided the inversion format of Chord Names. Instead, I have included that information in the numeral suffixes that stand for the degrees of the chord.

Now that I am more confident in the suffix editor, I am still struggling with the styles. I shall come up with more details in the next chat.