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I've already sent these on to Finale Support, but wanted to get buy-in from folks here as well.

There are a few things I'd appreciate being fixed or enhanced in a forthcoming update:
1. vertical collisions with tuplets and slurs (happens all the time). Were it not for JW Change being able to fix the vertical position of tuplets in several measures at once, it would require a lot of individual tweaks to fix this in a score. And as you know, JW plugins have not been updated in some time nor is it clear they will be around in the long term.
2. Combining identical accidentals on cross-layer unisons (eg, F# in layer 1 and layer 2 currently display two separate sharps, so the only solution, other than manually moving one over the other, is to hide one)
3. See this link-copying a measure with a tuplet to another measure causes some issues...

 

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… 2. Combining identical accidentals on cross-layer unisons (eg, F# in layer 1 and layer 2 currently display two separate sharps, so the only solution, other than manually moving one over the other, is to hide one) …

 

Document menu > Document Options > Accidentals

Select the option

Use Cross-Layer Accidental Positioning

 

… 3. See this link-copying a measure with a tuplet to another measure causes some issues …

 

What link?

I think that you forgot to add the hyperlink.

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Thanks Peter. Oddly, in at least one score of mine, that cross-layer accidental positioning (which I do know about and have checked by default) did not affect unisons in different layers with the same accidentals. I've been updating/correcting a ton of older scores lately and can't figure out or remember where I saw it. What's also interesting is that if I create a new F27.1 document using a SMuFL font, the accidentals do (correctly) unify, regardless of whether or not I have that box checked off. I suspect the issue I saw had something to do with whichever font I was using, or some quirk with the file itself (lots of those with older Finale files). Nothing I did worked except, obviously, to hide the accidental in one layer.

I did add the link and see it in the highlighted text in my post. But if for whatever reason it got stripped in the code: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ga4ny6celqcgpia/finale.mov?dl=0

As far as vertical collisions between slurs and tuplets, all I can say is thank goodness for JW Change. I just worry about its longevity and this is something Finale really should do on its own. I mean, if some upstart notation app can do it...

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Same thing with collisions of unisons in different layers. I started with this, in which the whole note G in layer 2 was obscured because it was colliding with the 16th notes in layer 1:

 

And after a few minutes of work involving Special Tools, TGTools (to increase the spacing at the beginning of a bar), etc, I got something that is more reasonable:

Again, this stuff should be automatic with Finale. 

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David Toub,

 

I tried to duplicate the problem, as as shown in your video (= copying a tuplet of 7 Eighths in the space of 8 Eighths).

For me, it copied correctly.

 

* Can you provide exact steps to reproduce the problem?

 

By The Way:

There is an easier way to copy, instead of dragging the selected measure:

Hold down Option, and click the target measure.

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… Same thing with collisions of unisons in different layers. I started with this, in which the whole note G in layer 2 was obscured because it was colliding with the 16th notes in layer 1 …

 

Enter the upper notes (= the long G note) in Layer 1, the lower notes in Layer 2.

For me, the lower notes are correctly moved to the right (you must Apply Music Spacing).

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Hi Peter. Odd that it copied correctly for you (encouraging but still odd). You can see what I'm doing in that video-and yes, I do know about option-clicking. Same exact thing happens. Let's see what the developers come up with at MM...

 

Regarding the collisions of unisons-uh, that's how I did it in the first place. I do hit cmd-4 to invoke note spacing (which should be happening automatically, also, since that's how it's set in my preferences). But even if I do it your way with the 16th in layer 2 and the sustained G in layer 1, it makes no difference (nor should it, of course; doesn't matter which layer gets the 16th notes, there still shouldn't be collisions):

Maybe it's something in your preferences? Here's how mine are set up, but even if I do the other combinations re: unisons, it still happens.

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I am sorry, but even with your settings I am unable to reproduce the problem.

 

What happens if you redo those two measures in

- an empty Document Without Libraries?

- an empty Default Document?

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David,

 

Since the F# is also colliding with the sixteenth G in measure 2, I would ask if you have tried to fit too many notes in the system here.

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Peter, I did that and this is what resulted:

Ouch! Glad it works for you. For whatever reason, it is not working for me, and I've used Finale for nearly 30 years. I'd love to understand why it's not exactly unicorns and rainbows on my end. I don't think I'm doing something "wrong."

Adrian, good question. I moved the next two measures to the next system and even with just two measures (with tons of extra unused space), it made no difference:

Since you use that other software as well, I'm curious how it would handle this. I suspect it avoids the collisions. BTW, Perfect Layout doesn't fix this either. In fact, in one instance (measure 70-72), it messed it up and caused a collision:

My point is this: after so many decades, Finale should be capable of handling notes in different layers without collisions.

  • If there is a preference, and a very specific one, in Document Options:Music Spacing to avoid collisions among layers (and in my case, for All Notepads, which is the safest option and really should be the default), then why is this happening?
  • Why is a unison whole note in layer 2 superimposed on the same note as a 16th?
  • Would this be acceptable in any other program in 2022?
  • Why does changing any of those collision prefs for unisons and hitting Apply do absolutely nothing?

Finale has always been a very capable program but is legendary for that flexibility and capability coming with some pain. I've been through a lot of pain over the years getting Finale to behave. Why is it still so frustrating? If I weren't 30 years invested in this, my next step would be very easy and rational. But I'm determined to make Finale work for me, and the collision issues can and should be fixed. 

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David Toub,

 

In your example:

 

Try swapping Layer 1 and Layer 2 (Edit menu > Move/Copy Layers…).

Then, Apply Music Spacing, and see what happens.

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Swapping is easier with JW Polyphony but as mentioned earlier, it doesn’t matter which notes are in which layer. Nor should it. 

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FYI: This is what Dorico Pro 3.5 shows by default at a space size (very important) of 5.5mm.

(Needless to say, one should never switch programs based on one example or feature.)

 

On the other hand, Finale 27, even when I leave enough extra measures on a line to squish the sixteenths together, does not mangle the whole note G and the sixteenths in layer 2.

 

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Thanks. I'd really love to understand why it doesn't happen for you but is happening for me in these use cases. 

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Is it possible you have (long ago) customized some Preferences or Document settings or are using a different font? I admit, I am as stumped as you are.

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David Toub,

 

As J Adrian Verkouteren points out, the obvious step is a resetting of Finale’s Preferences.

But probably you already have tried that.

 

One thing more:

Take a good look at the document settings for Music Spacing.

The culprit might be hiding somewhere in there.

I wonder whether the setting for {Manual Positioning} could make a difference.

As a test (not as a solution), try setting the {Manual Positioning} pop up menu to “Clear”.

 

If anything else fails, it might be time to contact the folks in Tech Support.

Send them your Finale document, along with some screen shots that show, what you are seeing.

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J Adrian: Maestro font. My prefs seem pretty standard; more recently I've moved to make my barlines 5 EVPUs and have been trying out the Petaluma font a bit, but not in this work. This links to my original .mus file from 2004, which should have its own prefs saved. Thanks. 

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Peter: thanks. Yes, I tried that and it did not fix anything.

I have contacted Support, prior to posting any of this, and will certainly follow-up with them. 

 

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I've been working with tech support on this and they suggested exporting the old .mus file to musicXML then importing it. Same exact collisions happened. But I also reproduced the thing I mentioned earlier about duplication of unison accidentals in different layers:

And yes, I do have “Use Cross-Layer Accidental Positioning” enabled, yet the sharps and naturals above are duplicated. Yeah, easy to fix when this happens by hiding one of the accidentals, but still odd to see this. 

Using a default document without libraries, I entered some notes on two layers just to try something again:

That first note in layer 1 is G-natural, which collides, and the G on the second beat is a dotted half, yet it merges with the 16th. BUT...when I hit CMD-4 to space it, it is as it should be:

But just for kicks, I tried to replicate the duplicated accidentals (again, making sure that “Use Cross-Layer Accidental Positioning” is still enabled) and it's all good:

So I suspect it has something to do with either using an older file (pre-.musx) or something is odd about older libraries attached to files. Whew.

Thanks. Glad all the troubleshooting helped. Odd though that exporting to musicXML and reimporting didn't fix any of the issues with that old file.

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