New post
Avatar
0

I've been thinking of upgrading my sound/instrument library by investing in sound libraries such as EW (Hollywood Orchestra) and was wondering if anyone had any experience using these library of sounds within Finale?  I've been using the Garritan sounds for many years (well before it was a part of the Make Music family) and like them, but wanted to take the MIDI performances to a new level.  I write for "live" performing groups but still want a better software version of the piece for my clients.  I've been researching the EW libraries and didn't see anything that said it would work within Finale but didn't see anything that said it wouldn't...since it's a fairly hefty price tag for the EW library I thought I'd ask other folks if they've had any experience with using the EW libraries in Finale.  Are the EW sounds fairly easy to use like the Garritan sounds?   Any issues I need to know before purchasing?  

 

Mac 10.11.6

Finale 2014.5

Finale 25 (just upgraded) 

41 comments

Date Votes
Avatar
0

Does EW say they provide supplementary Human Playback (HP) info to support its sounds (dynamics, playing techniques, etc.) in Finale, or do you have to create your own? That seems to be a major question that users need to address when adding sounds.

Comment actions Permalink
Avatar
0

I am currently, successfully, using the EW library with Finale.  I will say, however, that I haven't found anywhere that the Human Playback info is provided.  You will have to set up all of that yourself to get it to work at its best, and that will take a bit of time.  For example, without setting up any of this, Finale will fake play a "staccato" note on a bass guitar (just by shortening its play length), and it sounds decent, but does not use the actual sampled staccato sound available in the EW library.  Even without taking the time to set up all of the HP info, the EW library is a major improvement in sound.  Taking the time to set up the HP info will make it even better.

Comment actions Permalink
Avatar
0

Bobby,

     First of all thanks for your reply...Question, when setting up the EW to work at it's best...as an example, how do you switch from a  legato sound to a"staccato" sound within the same instrument family?   Do you place an channel switch within the score to activate the new "staccato" sound or do you use the articulation to somehow channel switch the sound to the correct and desired EW staccato sound?

 

Thanks for your time,

Josh 

Comment actions Permalink
Avatar
0

A lot about interfacing EW with Finale, I have learned by trial and error, and usually when I'm in the middle of a big project that has to be done quickly.  So, I'm sure I'm probably not using it in the best way possible lol.  For me, I have not yet been able to get the articulation to work correctly - and haven't really had enough time to really spend on figuring it out. So, what I've been doing is putting a switch in the score.  Exactly how I do that depends on how the sound library is set up. 

Some of the sounds in EW have key switches, so you can switch between a staccato or legato just by pressing a key on the low end of the keyboard.  For these, I have been adding a second line as a controller --- so, for example, if I have a bass guitar staff, where some of the notes are supposed to be staccato, I will add another staff above the bass guitar staff, set it to play on the same channel as the bass guitar, and just plug in the notes on that staff which will change from legato to staccato and back as necessary.

Other instruments in EW have these different sounds as totally separate "instruments" which would have to be loaded on separate channels.  If that is the case, then I will put the "articulations" on separate layers.  For example, legato notes on layer 1 and programmed to go to channel 1, where staccato notes may be on layer 2, programmed to send to channel 2.

At some point I guess I will take the time to find a better way to do it - but for now, that's how I've been able to work with it.

Comment actions Permalink
Avatar
0

I used to do that - but I just found that I can add a "key switch" folder to Human Preferences.  Then, I have created an expression category called "key switches" that is invisible.  So, I just put in the invisible expression and the key switch happens automatically.  I AM having difficulty adding the expressive elements to a score.  Apparently EW uses controller 11.  This works well in the mid tool, but I haven't figured out a way to add these effects in Human Playback.

Comment actions Permalink
Avatar
0

Don't the Garritan sustaining instruments (like wind instruments) use CC# 11 (among other things) for volume control in HP? If so, that would mean the CC is available for EW instruments.

Comment actions Permalink
Avatar
0

I've taken the time to create HP preferences for the Spitfire string libraries. In Finale's manual, it's not documented how to do this. But if you study the existing Garritan preferences you can figure it out. That being said, it still doesn't work as well as the Garritan sounds do.

 

As mentioned above, you can set up your preferences to use CC#1, CC#7 or CC#11. (with velocity if needed) My preferences were all done with Finale 2011, so I can't speak to how they'll work in F25. But I will say that despite all of the time I put into creating new preferences, they never worked like I hoped they would. So now, I still use the Garritan sounds in Finale, but then I create my polished recording in a DAW. The EW sample libraries and many others were not created to work in a notation program, they were made to work in a DAW. And the sole purpose of a DAW is to get the best recording possible. I'm positive that you'll get better results with EW in a DAW. But you'll get a better notated score in FInale. Use the right tool for the job and you'll get the best results.

Comment actions Permalink
Avatar
1

Well, I figured it out!  Here's how to program the EW libraries:

1. Create a new Human Playback folder: (I called mine "Play Key Switches"

2. Create a "New Technique" with the following settings:

     Instrument: Any

     Technique: Custom Text

     Action 1: Key Switch:  24

     Action 2: Base Volume: 0 (or Default)

     Action 3: Dynamic: CC#!! Only:  0

     Filter: For Text Expressions Containing: C0

3. Create all the Key Switches using the instructions on No. 2 (but change the Key Switch No. and Filter accordingly. So, the next one will be as follows:

     Instrument: Any

     Technique: Custom Text

     Action 1: Key Switch:  25

     Action 2: Base Volume: 0 (or Default)

     Action 3: Dynamic: CC#!! Only:  0

     Filter: For Text Expressions Containing: C#0

4. I have created Kew Switches up to B1.  That covers most of them in "Play", but I think some instruments like the "bass" use key switches in the upper octave.  I haven't created those yet.

5. Create new techniques for some text expressions that also require a Key Switch.  For instance, I am writing something with a violin.  For "pizz" I created a new technique that changes the KS to 39 (base: 0, Dynamic: CC#11 Only: 0, Filter: For Text Expressions Containing: pizz).  Then a similar one for arco.  For me, I went back to KS 24 for the arco.  I think you can do the same thing for brass mutes, etc.

6. Lastly, I created a new category under Text Expressions, and called it Key Switches.  I think I copied "Technique Text", but I made it "hidden".  Then, I just created an expression for each key switch.  C0, C#0, D0, etc.  I can have the EW instrument open to the "Player View", and it will basically say what each pitch does (i.e. C0 - Sus. Vib. Hrd., C#0 - Non Vib. sft, etc.).

That's it - it works like a charm!!!!  I think the basic idea can also work with other libraries, you just have to figure out how they are accessing dynamics (mod wheel, CC#7, CC#11, etc.).

Comment actions Permalink
Avatar
0

Hi John... I have successfully followed all your directions but have been unable to work out this one!! 

Then, I just created an expression for each key switch.  C0, C#0, D0, etc.  I can have the EW instrument open to the "Player View", and it will basically say what each pitch does (i.e. C0 - Sus. Vib. Hrd., C#0 - Non Vib. sft, etc.).

Just totally stumped. I know I must be overlooking something obvious. Could you help ?? :)

 

Comment actions Permalink
Avatar
0

Peter,

I will try to help - but I've found it very frustrating myself!!  I don't know exactly what is stumping you from your description.  I have gotten the "CO, C#0, etc." thing to work pretty well, so, I can help with that. 

There's three "Actions".  The first one should be "Key Switch", the second "Base Volume" (Default), and the third "Dynamic: CC#11 Only.

Filter: For Text Expressions Containing:  (for example) C#0

Make sure that under the Dynamics/Volume tab you UNCHECK Obtimize Attacks for Garritan Libraries.

 

Make sure you are getting the right Key Switch.  For example, C0 = 24, C#0 = 25, etc.

Good luck, and let me know how it's going!

John

Comment actions Permalink
Avatar
0

Hi again John Thankyou so much for getting back. My wife is close to completing her Phd in music and previously I have been using channel changes (very clunky) as analternative to keyswitches... Grrrr lol... I have created a new experiment score (string quartet) and the keyswitches started working. Say for pizz. D#1 but the original sound is playing as well as the pizz. same with staccato. when I use C0 to return the sounds return to original. I just need to find how to get the original sound to stop when the KS is activated. I am very appreciative of your time... :)

Pete 

Comment actions Permalink
Avatar
0

Peter,

I'm not understanding how you are getting two sounds if one instrument is loaded.  Maybe try another experiment score with only one instrument, and make sure you are indeed only loading one instrument (violin??).  ALSO, make sure that other music programs aren't also open.  Sometimes if GarageBand is open, or some other such program, two sounds will be triggered.  If ONLY Finale is open, and you have loaded only ONE instrument, then it should be impossible to hear two sounds at the same time when you have made a key switch.  Don't make ANY channel changes!  At some point, if you need to, you can make an "instrument change".  I guess you can also check to see if all the layers have the same instrument - but they normally do.  I have found that the Key Switches work best in Layer 1.  I used to load different versions of the same instrument in different layers, but now I have found it's best to load the same instrument in all layers (except for maybe percussion tracks).  Are you using the "Cloud" versions of EastWest?  If so, check out the "Symphonic Orchestra" as opposed to the "Hollywood" sounds.  I am gravitating more to the Symphonic Orchestra Library than the Hollywood Library. . . That being said, I am finding the whole process kind of frustrating.  The sounds sound great, but there is no consistency.  Some of the Strings patches don't even have "pizz".  The 11 violins in one group has harmonics, but harmonics aren't available for the violas, cellos (or basses).  If you want to use a harmon mute for the brass, well, it just isn't there.  Many problems. . .

John

Comment actions Permalink
Avatar
0

John you are seriously a GENIUS !!! If u knew how many hundreds of hours I have been trying to work this out... It works like a charm ...and makes perfect sense... There are a few bugs that I think are Finale related. It likes you to do things in a certain order when it comes to midi... But I am so grateful. For example the the two sound issue appeared to resolve itself once I tried the KSs in a new project.. I cannot thank you enough ( and from my wife as well)

Pete
Comment actions Permalink
Avatar
0

Pete,

I'm glad this worked, and I'm sorry I haven't been able to respond before now, but I got kind of busy with a project.  I hope you and your wife have continued success with your Finale playback!

John

Comment actions Permalink
Avatar
0

John,

In your instructions, where do I create a new category for Text Expressions? Is that in Human Playback Preferences?

Comment actions Permalink
Avatar
0

Yes, you can create a folder in playback preferences for the actual triggers, and then you can create a folder under the Expressions tool for the actual words that will cause the triggers to activate. In my experience this works okay most of the time. I have had some instances where it would work on one staff and not on another. In my discussions with finale tech support, they suggested that I do not worried about using the human playback preferences, but instead under the Expressions tool, create text expressions for all of your key switches, and then for the action that they perform, have them do a midi data dump which causes the correct note to play.

Comment actions Permalink
Avatar
0

Ryan,

For the new category for Text Expressions you click on the Expressions Tool, click somewhere on the score as if you were going to add an expression, then go to "Edit Categories" somewhere around the left column.  There, you can create a new Expressions Category and set them to be invisible, etc.

 

Comment actions Permalink
Avatar
0

Hi thanks for all the info!  I have been working on this recently and have the key switches down but I’m now stuck trying to work with dynamics (hairpins, crescendos etc.). Have any of you had any luck with this?is there a way to sync articulation or smart shapes with the east west players volume control?  I assume  set the human preferences to none and have been using the custom human preferences and creating key switch techniques, but by doing that the playback doesn’t respond to hairpins or change volume from fff to p.  Hope this makes sense.

Comment actions Permalink
Avatar
0

Hi Jeremy,
From my experience, I'll leave the human playback turned on, and for the most part it handles the crescendos well enough for me - which is basically that it plays the notes with increasing force to make them sound louder. For some of the instruments in the EastWest Library, as you know they include samples with different dynamics. If you want to use those then the only way I know to do that would be to include a key switch to change the instrument sample. The one thing that I have found that the human playback feature does not handle very well, is a crescendo or decrescendo which appears over a sustaining note, because it accomplishes the Crescendo or decrescendo by increasing and decreasing the force of notes played, so it cannot do that when it's just a single note that's being sustained. In this case the only way that I have found to accomplish this is to gradually increase or decrease the volume of the note by using the volume control in Play.  This can be done by right-clicking on the volume control knob in play, and choosing the option to attach to midi.  Then in finale, you can choose the menu option to send a midi value, so that you're a signing a midi signal to the volume knob. The purpose of doing this is to program play to respond to a particular midi signal. I usually assign one of the general controllers. Once you've done that then you can create an expression that triggers that General MIDI controller, and tell it to set it to whatever value you want for the volume. For a decrescendo, it means that you would have to put several expressions in your score with each one gradually decreasing the volume. It may be a little bit messy but it works like a charm for me. I feel like there's probably some way to use the sloping line in an expression to decrease it gradually but I have not been able to get that to work very well.

Comment actions Permalink
Avatar
0

Hi all,

 

with regards to the creating new HP Playback folders for EWQL - I have a couple of questions and will be glad of help.

Before this, I have been using Finale since 2004.  I love finale - I understand it and I love the Garritan Ambience etc.

Upon discovering EWQL I was faced with the dilemma of changing to Sibelius.  So, I have been working with Sibelius for a couple of years and I confess I find Finale so much easier and pleasurable to work with, Sibelius is very good, I just find Finale so much easier even for entering notes on a score.

So I wish to go back to Finale. 

So John, I will likely need to only  ask max 3 questions during this process.

the first being where does one create the folders for HP Prefs in Finale to use the EWQL ?

Many thanks in return 

 

Comment actions Permalink
Avatar
0

I had the same experience with Sibelius!  The folders I was talking about can be created in the Human Preferences Dialogue - which can be found through the expanded playback tool, preferences, or Midi/Audio/Human Playback/Human Playback Preferences. 

Comment actions Permalink
Avatar
0

This is yet another instance where users want notation apps to behave as DAWs. That's where you get the control you need and no notation app offers it. Doesn't mean you can't kludge an acceptable result but that can take many hours of additional work as you're finding out.

 

You can sync to a DAW with Rewire or export via MIDI. There are a few that can import MusicXML such as Logic and Reaper.

 

The flip side of the coin are the constant requests of DAW users for notation abilities rivaling Finale & Sibelius. Yea, that's not happening either.

 

Presonus has been trying for years to make Studio One and Notion behave as one. Still trying... Of course, that means they want us to use Notion 6 and Studio One. No, seriously, that's what they want. Uh... it's a long way from prime time. 

Comment actions Permalink
Avatar
0

Thanks guys I shall get back to you as soon as ... I discovered in the meanwhile, that my Finale, being 2014, does not host 64bit! darn this modern era of technology!

So I shall have to wait until I can afford now to get a newer version of Finale, so that I can copy the 64bit VST into the relevant folder, to begin, and then set about (trying) to create my own HP preferences ...

Just when I thought it was getting brighter at the end of the tunnel ... lol 

Comment actions Permalink
Avatar
0
Comment actions Permalink
Avatar
0

Finale had an upgrade sale just a few days ago. Maybe if you call them and cry, or something, they could extend the offer?? 🙂

Comment actions Permalink
Avatar
0

haha do you think? :)

Comment actions Permalink
Avatar
0

thanks MIke also :)

Comment actions Permalink
Avatar
0

hey guys, one and all.

 

I have just this evening sat down to start the laborious (yet perhaps enjoyable - brain expanding) task of creating the HP prefs.

 

I downloaded the trial version so that I could atleast get my HP set up ready for when I can upgrade.

 

So,  I have created my HP stage 1 - C0 - G0 - for strings.  I have noticed that when I insert the Tremolo symbol, it sounds like a machine gun?? Is this one where I will need to set it as a technique word (like pizz) rather than using the symbol provided in the articulations box?

Comment actions Permalink
Avatar
0

If it sounds like a machine gun, then you should change the instrument.... i.e. if using a violin, then you need to key switch to a tremolo sample of the violin

Comment actions Permalink
Avatar
0

Ah ok,

 

Also I am going to create the KS & HP for EWQLSO Gold  - as there are more samples in the KS for the 18 violins. 

 

Do I start again with 24 as the action 1 ks? or will this overide the setting I just created for EWQLSO Gold Strings? - if so I can delete this one and start again. 

Comment actions Permalink

Please sign in to leave a comment.