Thanks for the quick response, Lawson -- I appreciate it.

>I would be amiss to not acknowledge the fact that the locking of the old forum wasn't upsetting to many contributors on the old forum.

I am all for your new Help Center's success, but I have to disagree with you on this point.  When I discovered that the old forum was locked, earlier today, I found six pages full of impassioned and desperate pleas on the part of that forum's users -- including very strong statements on the part of some of its most esteemed and expert (volunteer) moderators.  And all of those posts related how Make Music refused to reconsider, and in many cases even refused to respond.    Later, I talked with a customer sales rep at Smart Music, who -- being an honest and helpful person -- admitted that many, many more calls on this issue had preceded my own! 

You have not given a reason as to why Make Music cannot continue to maintain that old forum as a parallel site for Finale technical support.   In my opinion, Make Music can continue to grow and develop its Help Center while fostering the old forum.  I can assure you that Finale users will appreciate such a move.  

The old forum is not a threat to, or competition with, the Help Center -- it is a complementary resource.   Let me elaborate:   While perhaps a majority of Finale users may be amateur or semi-professional composers or arrangers (choral leaders, etc), the only real reason for using a notation program that is as arcane and deeply flexible as Finale is to provide the capability necessary for composers and arrangers of more complex scores.  These days, there is a plethora of programs more suited to the simpler, template-driven notation required by amateurs -- and there would be no reason for Finale's existence, in my opinion, if it were to become a less complex program.  It's raison-d'etre is for high-end use.  

However, Make Music has almost never been up to the task of providing technical support to advanced users -- either via Finale manuals, or customer support -- and I would be astonished were your Help Center staff up to the level of Finale expertise available at the old forum.  Serious composers and arrangers will abandon Finale if the expertise required for advanced-user support isn't available.  (And they will never forget, or forgive, being betrayed by Make Music this way.)  Make Music can, however, have the best of both worlds by simply maintaining the old forum -- you could even rename it as something like "Finale forum for advanced users" -- while continuing to grow the new Help Center.

>. . .the other forum, while closed for new posts, can still be searched. 

Yes, it can, but my experience has been that searches only provide answers to the kinds of highly technical questions that I -- and many others -- submitted in, at most, 50% of the time.  I can't tell you how often I found myself in the middle of a complex score, being brought to tears by a glitch or un-traceable counter-feature, and the only way to find a solution was via that old forum.  The 'moderators' who so generously shared their expertise were unbelievably helpful.  They really deserve better treatment than this, Lawson.

Lawson, it is 2017 -- a time when cross-linking web sites and even platforms is so commonplace as to be banal.  The issue that I've raised here shouldn't even be an issue, because it is so unbelievably easy to solve!  

I would really appreciate it, Lawson, if you'd be kind enough to bring both my initial 'request' and this comment to the attention of someone at Make Music who actually has a position of accountability -- and the authority to institute changes -- in relation to this issue.

Again, I appreciate your quick response, but I require a more substantive reason for Make Music's actions, re. this old forum, and some quick, remedial action, if I am not to find myself on the path to Dorico some day soon.

Thanks for your reply Michael.

First things first, that initial line includes a typo - my purpose was to acknowledge that this move was (not "wasn't") upsetting to many contributors to the old MakeMusic forums. Thank you for your passionate response to that - you are certainly not alone in those feelings.

To be clear, the primary purpose for choosing to not link and maintain both forums is actually that we don't want to separate our users based on experience level. We know that there are other forums out there that suit advanced user discussion, but we would like to see this community be a mix of all user types, and of course with expert discussion as an integral part of the conversation!

All in all, I see where you're coming from, and as I mentioned above you are not the first person to bring forward such concerns.I don't want to do you the disservice of just stating "duly noted", so let me be transparent and reiterate that linking or maintaining the old forum is not currently planned. Rest assured that these forums are monitored not only by me, but by product management as well.

All of that being said, I would just like to state again that I sincerely hope that you find this online community a valuable resource moving forward. It is our hope that with this change we can help better serve the Finale community.

Best,

Lawson Dutton || Notation/Garritan Product Specialist for MakeMusic Customer Success

Thanks, again, for the quick reply!

>that initial line includes a typo - my purpose was to acknowledge that this move was (not "wasn't") upsetting to many contributors to the old MakeMusic forums.

Thanks for clarifying.

>All in all, I see where you're coming from. . .

As I do you.  

Here's a proposal that can satisfy both our wishes:   invite those advanced users who were so supremely helpful in the old forum to take part -- as acknowledged 'senior advisors' -- in the new Help Center.   Make Music could even show some appreciation by offering those experts some kind of honorarium.    (I should add that I am not one of those 'senior advisors' -- I only received help from them!)    It will not be difficult to locate those 'senior advisors' -- if you need help, I'll be happy to help locate them.

Though those 'senior advisors' may be angry and insulted enough to decline such an offer, I think such a proposal might be sufficient to not only solve our problems (yours being that you want a comprehensive site that is exclusive to Make Music, and advanced users having the need to consult other expert users in order to continue properly using Finale), but to advance the cause of Finale -- in terms your Help Center, development of the product, and maintaining the loyalty of your long-term client base.  

At least meet me -- and the many on behalf of whom I'm pitching this -- halfway, Lawson.

A few of us perticipate as we see fit. We check in to see if there are questions we can answer and feel useful. This site is not conducive to being a user forum in any sense of the word, however. No thread categories, for starters. There are many other reasons.

finaleforum.com is an unofficial user group that has been around a long time. Many of the old gang are there, often with new screen names.

>finaleforum.com is an unofficial user group that has been around a long time. Many of the old gang are there, often with new screen names.

Thanks for this, Mike!   I hadn't realized that there was a parallel forum to the old MakeMusic Finale forum!

I have noticed that I look at this Make Music web site about twice a month. I missed the last update (25.3 but Finale didn't suggest an update) but I did see this on another forum and did the update successfully. Mostly, I cannot find what I need here. I did look at the old MM forum every day as the discussions were informative. Not so much in this format. Of course, perhaps others find things different; from my point of view, I have almost no connection to MM at all anymore.

A few days ago, I received the following email from MakeMusic, in relation to this thread:

"Hi Michael,
Thanks for contacting us and for taking the time to detail your feedback! I know my colleague Lawson has also been in communication with you today via our communities. I wanted to let you know that we fully intend to discuss your feedback with our director. While I won't pretend to predict the future, I also don't want valuable feedback to go ignored because ultimately our Zendesk forum is a user-driven community!

Best,

A lot of us used to come to Forum once a day or even more.  I come by maybe once a week now and leave wondering why a company would throw away a great asset like the old Forum and the user base in favor of this which is like trying to fit an elephant in a mouse hole.  The old Forum worked. It worked well. The knowledge there was amazing!!  Sometimes things do not need to be changed.  MakeMusic does not get that and continues to be deaf to its user base.

Poor decisions can be reversed, but since the base has been dispersed to various other Forums and MakeMusic considers that base irrelevant and useless I believe many of us have no interest in coming back or posting here very often or ever.

The base is an important asset.  Just ask any politician.

I wish nothing but the absolute best for MakeMusic as Finale is my program of choice, but if a better option comes along I would ditch Finale in a second.  The absolute disrespect shown towards those of us who have been loyal to a product for as long as one can remember is truly inexcusable, but I guess that is business and some us felt the old Forum was more than that.  Too bad MakeMusic never noticed.

Thank-you, Cimarron Press, for taking the time to sign in on this issue.  

One would think that a company that once produced the most sophisticated music notation app around would have ears to hear.  

I don't know if MakeMusic has become totally tone-deaf (ah, the blessed destructiveness of career-ambitious upper managers, if that is what's up here!), but the more those who have cared about Finale express their deep disappointment, the more evidence we will eventually have as to MakeMusic's aural capacity.

Addendum:  I have emailed this to one of the old forum's expert contributors, but -- not knowing whether that forum's private messages function works any longer -- I'll repeat it here:

Do any of you who gave so much of yourselves to the old Forum have the desire to re-locate and resurrect it with a different host?  If there are hosting costs, I'm sure users could come up with the $100 or so per year necessary to cover them.   

As to whether or not MakeMusic would allow the transfer of the old Forum's contents to a new site:  any tech-savvy folks out there who know how to create a kind of site-search code that would link to a resurrected site?

The problem with the question above is many of those that "gave so much" are gone.  This was MakeMusic's choice despite TONS of objections from those that ""gave so much". 

I go to the Facebook page every now and then.  There is a solid knowledge base and like the old Forum people chime in with solutions almost immediately.  Or many times can confirm a bug and will have a work around.

What is the Facebook page called, Cimarron Press?  If it is acting as a new incarnation of the old forum, I may as well look there. . .

Dear Michael,

Thanks for trying on this.  A lot of us have tried, but the beautiful wall of MakeMusic doesn't care about its base eventually led to a lot of us giving up.

Bryan

Finale PowerUsers:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/finalepower/ 

Some have transitioned there.  Some to other places.  And some just stopped offering help.

My last post for this will that I do not believe MakeMusic has a clue what they lost with this decision.  That Forum was the support for so many and it has been eliminated for whatever reason MakeMusic pulled out of a hat.

Back to engraving in Finale :)

Thanks, Bryan!  I've just asked to join it.

Best,

Michael

>Do any of you who gave so much of yourselves to the old Forum have the desire to re-locate and resurrect it with a different host?  If there are hosting costs, I'm sure users could come up with the $100 or so per year necessary to cover them.   <

Not interested. While finaleforum.com isn't perfect, the biggest improvement would be the addition of a lot more users. Newbies, experts, professionals and hobbyists. The more there are, the more we can learn from each other.

While I wouldn't mind seeing different sections for Mac and Windows users over there, without a lot more of both, what would be the point? For that matter, I wouldn't mind seeing seeing those categories separated here.

I'll be checking in there, too, Mike.