You can create it as an expression, and hide the actual TS. But how will you notate it? No such thing as a sixth note, as far as I know. What notes go in the measure? If you show us that, maybe we can suggest a solution.

… Is there a way to notate irrational time signatures in Finale? Like 4/6 meter for example, without too much workarounds …

Where did you find the term “irrational”?

I am not sure the term “irrational” is (mathematically) correct in this particular context (almost all time signatures are rational) - I would rather use the term “not dyadic rational”.

As a matter of fact the Time Signature Tool is a very powerful tool.

Among its features is that you can set a “real” time signature that gives the measure the correct duration, and also set a “display” time signature.

Like e. g. a 1/4 pickup measure in 4/4:

set the “real” time signature to 1/4, and set the “display” time signature to 4/4.

Now for the 4/6 time signature.

Since the “display” time signature is a “not dyadic rational” time signature, use the Expression Tool to create a “false” time signature of 4/6 (as Mike pointed out).

To make the duration of the measure correct you must make the “real” duration of the measure as accurate as possible to have Finale space the notes and play back properly. To do this, you must approximate the time signature with a sum of fractions where the denominator in each term of the sum is a power of 2 (e.g. 1, 2, 4, 8, etc.).

One measure of 4/6 is approximately 2 731 EDUs.

That is equal to a “real” (Composite) time signature of 1/2 + 1/8 + 1/32 + 1/128 + 11/4096.

I just tried it, and it is correct, both in music spacing and playback.

I am always looking for new ways to confuse the musicians who play my music. ;-)

I saw this many times when I was at the university but didn't know the english term for it until I saw David Bruce's video on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLCD6sJdsOs

A 4/6 measure goes like this: You divide a whole not into 6 equal notes and you get 2 quarter note triplets. But if you only want to use 4 out of the 6 notes you end up notating it as a 4/6 measure. Check the video for a better explanation...

Sorry, but I would have walked out of that concert.

Which one? 

Any of them in that video.

Any of them in that video.

I figure it's always nice to know, even if I do not use them myself. Thank you, Martin, for the explanatory link.

I just started studying irrational time signatures, and music (by Thomas Ades and others) that uses them. Can be very emotionally powerful. Trying to figure out how to create them in Finale 2014.6, so will study this thread. Thanks, Gary Eskow

I couldn't figure out how to create the 4/6 time signature using the Expression Tool. Can someone please explain in a bit more detail? Thank you! GE

Regarding Peter's composite time signature formula; it's fabulous, but I can't imagine myself going through the math to figure out the spacing for every possible denominator (how many edus in a quarter note, again? Lol). Once I get the time signature itself figured out I'll probably manually re-space notes, or else approximate using a composite time signature and then space.

GE

… I couldn't figure out how to create the 4/6 time signature using the Expression Tool. Can someone please explain in a bit more detail? …

Gary Eskow,

I think we need more info from you.

Are you an experienced Finale user? (it is un-clear, how detailed instructions you need)

Do you know, how to use the Expression Tool? (like Expression Categories, Positioning &c.)?

To make the “false” time signature have the same “layout look” as the “real” time signatures, use the same font as the “real” time signatures (look in Document Options - Fonts).

To make room at the beginning of the measure for the “false” time signature, use the Measure Tool, and double-click the measure.

Yep, quite an experienced user.

… couldn't find a way to make two numbers sit on top of one another within a single expression …

Gary Eskow,

First of all I would create a custom expression category (for the “false” time signature) by duplicating an existing category.

In the pane Positioning, in the sub-pane Horizontal,

set Justification to Center,

set Horizontal Alignment to Start of Time Signature,

set Additional Horizontal Offset to 18e.

In the pane Positioning, in the sub-pane Vertical,

set Vertical Alignment to Staff Reference Line,

You could use two text expressions, one for the “numerator”, ad one for the “denominator”.

The positioning relative to the Staff Reference Line would be -6pt and -18pt.

Or you could create the “false” time signature as a (single) shape expression.

Thanks much for this, Peter. I doubt if I will be able to execute your instructions but I'll try!

Thanks again.

Gary
Eskow=4 

             6

Much to my surprise, Peter, this was quite easy to do. The positioning didn't quite work out as you indicated it would, probably because I made an error that will become clear over time, but the process itself was straightforward. Creating the "false" time signature in particular was simple-why would you even consider going the route of creating separate expressions for the numerator and denominator? Thanks again, this was great.

Gary

Hey Peter, one more question!

As a final step I wanted to match the fonts in the existing time signatures. Couldn't get the process to work using your first method, but came close using the second by selecting Maestro and customizing the size to 20 points. Does that make sense to you?

G

… Creating the "false" time signature in particular was simple-why would you even consider going the route of creating separate expressions for the numerator and denominator? …

Because the “two separate expressions for the numerator and denominator” can be created as two text expressions, positioned vertically at -6pt and -18pt below the Staff Reference Line. That takes only a few seconds.

On The Other Hand, creating one compound expression, as a shape expression, requires using the Shape Designer. In the Shape Designer you still have to position the numerator and denominator precisely, a task that can be quite time consuming if you have to do it by “trial and error” (= if you do not know, precisely what to do).

… Couldn't get the process to work using your first method, but came close using the second by selecting Maestro and customizing the size to 20 points. Does that make sense to you? …

I suppose that you by your word “first” method mean “text expression”, and by your word “second” method mean “shape expression”, right?

No, that does not make sense to me. I have alway set the size to 24pt - and that matches the font sizes perfectly.

If you send me your Finale document (g t p . t h o m s e n (a) a i m . c o m), I shall be happy to examine it.

Dang, I had quit Finale. Went back in to create a quick document to show you what I was referring to, and the "Custom Time Signature" category I had created was gone! Boo hoo! Is there a specific step I have to take after creating a category to save it???

THANKS SO MUCH!

GE

… Went back in to create a quick document to show you what I was referring to, and the "Custom Time Signature" category I had created was gone! Boo hoo! Is there a specific step I have to take after creating a category to save it??? …

Expression categories are document specific, not program specific.

In Other Words:

Expression categories are saved in the document.

You did save your Finale document, right?

If you copy an expression (with e. g. a “false” time signature) from one document to another document, then the expression’s category is also copied to the other document

If needed, you could save a Library of the document’s expressions.

The expression categories will be saved in the Library, too.

You can then load that Library into other Finale documents.

(File menu > Save Library… & File menu > Load Library…)

If you need a specific expression category in all new documents, then add the category to the template, you use when creating new documents.

Thanks, Peter. Nope, I didn't save the document-it was just  a test document, not a real score. I assumed (falsely!) that Expression categories would be saved universally once created. Not a problem.

Since I never got to the point where saving individual Expressions at -6 and -18 points worked for me, I'm going to take up your offer, try again, and if I still don't get it email that test document to you later today.

Gratefully,
GE

"No, that does not make sense to me. I have alway set the size to 24pt - and that matches the font sizes perfectly.

If you send me your Finale document (g t p . t h o m s e n (a) a i m . c o m), I shall be happy to examine it."

What font are you using-Maestro, right?

… What font are you using - Maestro, right? …

It depends (whatever the client wants…).

Maestro, November, Petrucci, Broadway Copyist, Jazz.

But for Time Signatures I always use size 24 Points.

I'm fascinated to see that there is actually a "use irrational time signature" category! Hmm...am sending you my little Test doc. THANK YOU!

Oops sorry!

I had a dot too much in my email address. (should be gtpthomsen)

I have now sent you an email.

You should probably delete your previous post - before a spambot gets it (or at least make it un-recognizable for a spambot, like I did with my own email address).

Deleted! Thanks...

1/3 = 1 triplet quarter = 1/8 + 1/32 + 1/128 + 11/4096
2/3 = 2 triplet quarters = 2/8 + 2/32 + 2/128 + 22/4096
4/6 = 3 triplet quarters & 1 triplet quarter = 1/2 + 1/8 + 1/32 + 1/128 + 11/4096
5/6 = 3 triplet quarters & 2 triplet quarters = 1/2 + 2/8 + 2/32 + 2/128 + 22/4096