> I have zero bottlenecks except the ASIO issue< That may be an issue no matter what. Unfortunately, all the latest interfaces require proprietary drivers for Windows. It’s not like Mac where many interfaces get along fine with Core Audio and don’t require drivers.

There is a new generation of Fast USB 2 interfaces on the market released since Sept. 2019. All are extremely fast and when set up properly, direct monitoring latency is undetectable. They all use the same DAC and everybody’s offering one or more units — and I do mean everybody:  MOTU, Presonus, NI, Mackie, Focusrite, Behringer, Steinberg and others I don’t recall at the moment.

The issue is how many ins and outs do you need? I’m not talking analog but digital. The Mackie ProFx30v3, for example, has 30 analog inputs including 23 mic pres but only 2 USB channels out and 4 in—as are all the ProFxv3 (I have the 6 10 and 12 channel versions and love ‘em). The MOTU M4 is the only small 4x4 interface while the rest are 2x4. Everybody makes units with more digital I/Os and a few (MOTU, PreSonus, Focusrite) are using the new DACs.

Finale is fine with 2x2, by the way. You can’t import multi-channel audio into Finale. If you are using ReWire with a DAW, that changes everything, of course.

You need to figure out how many I/Os you need, both analog and digital. Then you need to chose a company with good support, preferably phone-in, so that you can get the unit working with your system. MOTU is such a company but so are others.

I would check the websites first to see if the Interface(s) you own have custom drivers. With Windows 10 updates yanking people's chains, you may find that your interface supplier(s) have released new drivers to compensate.

(Which is to say, I agree with Mike's first point and suggest you try that to see if you can solve your problem without buying new hardware--unless you want to. :-)

Thanks for the comments.  The central issue is that the manufacturers ASIO drivers never work with Finale and I have to use ASIO4ALL, which has latency issues.  It is a Finale issue because they 100% work with my DAW, VE Pro, Play, and Kontakt.  It also works in other notation software like Notion and Sibelius.  That is why I am asking what actually works for everyone.

I prefer Finale because of the workflow and the results I get, but I am bogged down by native ASIO driver issues which severely impair my process.  I was looking heavily into RME and UA, but really do not want to invest that much money.  As I understood it, all VST instruments travel over 2 channels.  In the past, I had terrific results with zero latency with Focusrite Safire,  it they no longer support WIN 10 and since then, it has been a frustrating cycle of trying hardware out and be disappointed time and time again.

Let me get this straight. 1) You built your own PC. 2) Native ASIO drivers don't work the way you like 3) It's MakeMusic's fault because a 3rd party driver that hasn't been updated since 2017 doesn't work the way you like. 4) All Win interfaces have proprietary drivers nowadays but you don't think they'll work with Finale. 

Did I miss anything?

The load time for ASIO4ALL in Finale has been an issue for many years. This is nothing new. Other WIN drivers do work with Finale. This is only 6 years old.

https://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=5&m=436438

Looking over your build, I don't know what game(s) that's built for but it isn't designed for music production. I live and work in the heart of the Silicon Valley and am not unfamiliar with the hardware. If this is an unsolvable puzzle, you might consider a second machine for music.

Hi Mike.  i do not mean to come off as a disgruntled and unappreciative Finale user.  I absolutely love Finale.  I am just very frustrated and worn out.  Yes, I do build my own systems and have been building for well over twenty years now.  I built it ground up as a music and photography workstation and do not game on it.  Until I had to replace my MSI motherboard, I was able to use my Focusrite Clarett 2Pre USB with ASIO4ALL with excellent results.  I was running over 64 channels of Play libraries with 3 mic positions enabled w/o issue.  No pops, artifacts, stuttering.  The new mobo is a Asrok Taichi x399 which is running much better.  My ram bandwidth has doubled and everything runs beautifully as specked.  That said, I could not get my Clarett 2Pre USB to work properly with Finale after that change.  It only worked with Direct Sound and with some popping and artifacts.  To be clear, I have never been able to get Focusrite ASIO drivers to work with Finale over three different builds (the former two were Intel), but had success with ASIO4ALL with very high buffers.  Frustrated, I sold my Clarett and decided to try the SB AE-9, which was a mistake.  I am going to return it this week.  So, essentially, I am shopping for an interface that the users here have had a lot of success with in hopes of enjoying that same success.  That is it in a nut shell. 

A fair part of my frustration is that Focusrite ASIO drivers have always worked well for me outside of Finale.  This includes Sonar X1, East West Play libraries, Kontakt 6.2 and lower, Vienna Ensemble Pro 5, Notion 6, and Sibelius (5 I think?). 

"All Win interfaces have proprietary drivers nowadays but you don't think they'll work with Finale."  I don't necessarily think that they wont work, they have not ever worked for me with any Focusrite interface I have used (Saffire Pro 24, Clarett 2Pre USB, and the Scarlet2i2) and now the SB AE-9.  I just want an interface that other users have had success with while using the proprietary ASIO drivers. 

System specs:  AMD TR 2920x, 64 GB Corsair ddr3200 ram at 2133mhz (8 matching sticks in quad channel setup), 6 500GB PCI NVME SSD's for samples.  Finale 26.2, 25, Notion 7, Sonar X1, East West Hollywood Orchestra Diamond and 12+ EW libraries, Orchestral Tools Berlin, numerous Kontakt libraries, VE Pro 5.

I am thinking along the lines of the MOTU M4 and based on what I am understanding, folks have been happy with it.  I have used 2x2 before and had no issues as you also mention, but I tend to prefer to have more room just in case.

The M4 has interesting options including independent input trims for 1/2 and, as I mentioned, is the only small interface with USB 4x4. 

Don't know if this will be an issue but all the new interfaces have an issue with their line inputs. They are +18dBu and they do not tolerate TRS cables if used with unbalanced sources (MOTU mentions it but only Focusrite explains how you can damage things that way). Many devices will present a line in signal that's just too low. I found this out from MOTU support when my Yamaha P121 had issues being connected to 3/4 from the L/R outs on the keyboard. My Mackie line ins are the same (not an issue with the Combi-Jacks on any of the units). My workaround is to take a TRS out of one of the headphone jacks and split it into L/R using a Y adapter and going into 3/4 (need the 1/2 for microphones). Finally enough signal! Again, same with the Mackies. Why I have 3 of the Mackies + the M4 is off topic but I'll be slimming down soon.

Yes, I build my own PCs.  Doing for almost 3 decades now.  I had no idea, this whole time I should have been getting my computers built by Apple experts.  

Native ASIO drivers have been a real pain with Windows that is for sure.  No denying that.

Is it MakeMusic fault?  Well, it seems the audio problems only happen when Finale is loaded.  Not when Cubase, Wavelabs, video games, youtube, VLC, Premier Pro.......or any other software that uses ASIO.  If it only happens with Finale, what do you think?  

I would like to get to the bottom of this.  What is Finale doing to the ASIO driver that no one else is?

It is strange.  I can have Skype and Cubase/Wavelabs up and running with no issues.  Skype + Finale will not work.  The sound stops working in Skype.  I have to go to the settings in Skype and toggle the audio interface to get it back working again.

Getting a separate PC just for Finale, or getting a computer built by some expert is NOT the answer.

Can you use DirectSound in Finale?

If your ASIO driver has an option to grab exclusive use of your sound card (some do), make sure it is off/unchecked.

>Is it MakeMusic fault?  Well, it seems the audio problems only happen when Finale is loaded.  Not when Cubase, Wavelabs, video games, youtube, VLC, Premier Pro.......or any other software that uses ASIO.  If it only happens with Finale, what do you think?  

I would like to get to the bottom of this.  What is Finale doing to the ASIO driver that no one else is?

It is strange.  I can have Skype and Cubase/Wavelabs up and running with no issues.  Skype + Finale will not work.  The sound stops working in Skype.  I have to go to the settings in Skype and toggle the audio interface to get it back working again.

Getting a separate PC just for Finale, or getting a computer built by some expert is NOT the answer.<

As fascinating as that is, it's not a support issue unless MM says that they support other drivers — which they don't.

You are describing a feature request for MM's Marketing Dept. but I'm sure you already know that.

I had no idea Finale doesn't support ASIO drivers.  I use an ASIO driver because of my DAC.  DAC's can improve the sound quality.

Here is what I did just now.

1. Open MyTek setup and made sure it was set to 48kHz.  Close MyTek
2. Open Finale.  Watch sample rate switch from 48->192->41 on DAC.  
3. Go to Device setup->Audio and see it was set to 41.  Change it to 48.  (Not sure why Finale changes the sample rate to 192)
4. Close Finale.
5. Open Finale. Watch sample rate switch from 48->192->48 on DAC. (again.  Why 192?)
6. Close Finale.
7. Blue screen of death
8. Reboot
9. Hardware scan.  This will take time.

>I had no idea Finale doesn't support ASIO drivers.<

Since it most certainly does support ASIO, no one has said that. Have you ever read the manual? 

https://usermanuals.finalemusic.com/FinaleWin/Content/Finale/PRECCONFG.htm 

Mike, when you have something constructive to say please say it.  Otherwise, you should stop posting.  You are not helping.

Your posts add less than zero to the conversation.  Please stay away from the keyboard.

The problem you describe is not unique to Finale; it has shown up on the Dorico forum also with ASIO along with solutions they gave their users to solve it. If it can be solved there, it can be dealt with by Finale users.

>The problem you describe is not unique to Finale; it has shown up on the Dorico forum also with ASIO along with solutions they gave their users to solve it. If it can be solved there, it can be dealt with by Finale users.<

And the Digital Performer, Cakewalk, Ableton and many other user forums.

It is hard to believe that it has been 8 months since I started the post.  I appreciate the continuation of the topic.  I left it alone because I chose to find help elsewhere and avoid the condescension.  That aside, this is what I have learned since.  Yes, Finale will support ASIO, but does not do well with some native ASIO drivers.  I went through 3 different Focusrite interfaces trying native, which always failed, and then ASIO4ALL.  ASIO4ALL also had issues.  Note: these issues were never present (for me) in Windows 7, which is interesting in of itself.  I decided to take a leap of faith and went with a very interesting PCI-E card from Creative.  Low and behold, native ASIO did not work either.  However, ASIO4ALL performance has been nothing short of stellar.  I honestly could not be happier.  The 32bit DAC is astonishingly good and in some very high-end equipment.  Anyhow, there are other options.

Since getting it all fixed, I have thoroughly enjoyed Finale and writing again.  Is it perfect?  Of course not, but it is quite good and I am able to deploy some very dense templates now.  I have found that I have nearly as much control as a DAW with some exceptions of course and am overall quite impressed with the power of the platform.

"I chose to find help elsewhere and avoid the condescension"

Agreed. The comment "Let me get this straight. 1) You built your own PC." was such an insult from the community expert.  I kind of knew it was going to get rough.

Thanks Victor.  I have seen another thread about ASIO problems as well.  Finding help elsewhere seems to be the best answer.

Take care.

If Mike's trying to make sure he has the facts straight offends you, Peter, that's on you; I detect no implied offense there. And I say that as one who is seriously considering building my own computer next time I need to upgrade. Those of us who have tried to respond to your problem have offered the best solutions that come to mind given our various experience, including difficulties with ASIO in various forms.

On the Dorico web site, some have suggested trying FlexASIO when they encountered experiences similar to what you describe.

This is a user’s board. None of us here work for MakeMusic and what Finale does and does not support—and how— is beyond the control of any of us. The best any of us can do is to try and help with the way things are. 

Apparently, Mr. Otto came here to rant and to pick a fight over how Finale should do things. As has been pointed out, how Finale should do anything is Feature Request and there’s another board for that.

  "If Mike's trying to make sure he has the facts straight offends you, Peter, that's on you; I detect no implied offense there." 

How can you fail to detect it? The original post was, of course, quite sarcastic.. " let me get this straight.." is a common, (and rather vulgar) lead in to the recounting of anothers actions in such a manner that they will appear patently ridiculous to all concerned. A sort of public humiliation.  "Trying to get the facts straight" has a different look to it.  But I suppose the "experts" need to stick together. 

You post here after a year has passed since the last post? It appears you are just trolling, Mayo, trying to reignite an unpleasant interchange.