Instead of the Parallels Desktop suggestions above, would it be possible to create an external start-up drive using the latest version of Mac OS that Finale will happily run on, then installing and authorising Finale on that and booting from that disk when one uses Finale?

You could, but there are two issues with that off the top of my head:

• Most importantly, you would have to reboot into that drive to use Finale. At least with a VM you can run it in parallel with your OS just in a different window, so it's more efficient.
• macOS has gotten weird about letting folks boot from external drives. I have multiple clones but generally the security features of the OS prevent booting from them, unlike how it was several years ago. There are ways to bypass that, but it can be problematic in some cases.

Thanks for your input David; rebooting into a separate drive wouldn't be a massive deterrent for me, but I'll need to investigate the issue you raise about newer macs being weird about booting from an external drive. I have an older 2010 Mac Pro, with a couple of external drives connected to boot into earlier versions of OS, which so far works fine; but I haven't tried this same trick with my newer Mac.

No problem. Yes, older versions of macOS were perfectly happy booting into clones (I use carbon copy cloner; my understanding is SuperDuper is long gone or obsolete). But a few years ago they changed things and CCC had to do some magic behind the scenes to continue providing good solutions-Mike Bombich (the developer of CCC) is amazing and very responsive. I do still clone my drive, but have no expectations that it can be used for startup, although I've not tried that in some time.

Kevin, David:

An external "Finale only" start-up drive will not be transferable to another computer. As I stated in a previous post, the Finale authorization system uses the computer's CPU serial number as a part of its authorization. Moving the external drive to another computer will break the authorization as the new computer's CPU serial number will be different. The PD option creates a permanent virtual serial number within the virtual machine - this is the required step to keep Finale working.

Also - running any app that relies heavily on temporary files from an external drive, other than for emergency backup operations, would be painfully slow. I see no advantage to this.

Totally agree. Thanks for the additional detail.

Thanks David and Doug. Just to clarify: I wasn't suggesting using a cloned drive, rather creating an external mac os startup drive, on which I would install and authorise a copy of Finale; I believe it is possible to authorise Finale on more than one computer? this external drive would act like a 2nd computer and needing to boot into a separate drive when I am working in Finale in future wouldn't be an insurmountable problem for me. I appreciate your advice anyway.

@kevin: The current license for Finale includes installation on two computers. At the very least, I'm hoping to hold onto my 2024 MBA for the foreseeable future to run Finale, but will investigate Parallels as a one-time purchase. Makes a lot of sense. I will continue to try to work with Dorico but when I start to question why I'm doing something, that usually means something.

I strongly agree with the calls to open source Finale.  A post was created on the “Feature Request” side of the forum at the link below.  Not sure how much difference it might make, but maybe we can all upvote it.

• https://makemusic.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/25930028335383-Open-Source-Finale

There are a few "quirks" that have been on the Finale request backlog that I would love to be able to go in and fix myself….

As things currently stand, I'm considering creating a virtual machine image with a Finale installation.  Not an ideal solution, but being limited to the life of the hardware associated at the time of cutoff—despite having paid for a perpetual license—is absolutely appalling.

@Mike Hallloran
I just did a quick xml import from finale to both dorico and musescore - and out of the box, musescore was far, far closer to the Finale original. A title page and optimized staves (as we once called them) befuddled the muse, but absolutely everything in Dorico needs work. In Muse, hidden scores are still hidden, staff spacing stayed spaced, but in Dorico it's red X's from beginning to end. One hopes a $149 fee will get an interpreter to clean the mess up.

iLok Dongles have never looked as good as they do now.

I have never had an issue installing and authorizing or running Dorico.

The idea of having to call Tech Support on the phone for that is hilarious to me.

EDIT:  MakeMusic announced they will allow Authorizations of existing licenses indefinitely.

David, I have multiple licenses for Finale and many Macs to run them on. I am planning to change the System Drive on one of them later this week that has 25 or 27 on it now. I will test Migration Assistant at that time.

 have never had an issue installing and authorizing or running Dorico.

The idea of having to call Tech Support on the phone for that is hilarious to me.

Glad you find it funny. Those doing the screen share and seeing how it wasn't working on my machines weren't laughing. But, as I already said, it works ok on my M2 Mac Studio since late last year.

Here's this afternoon's full announcement:

Clarifications on the initial announcement

1.  Finale authorization will remain available indefinitely: Please note that future OS changes can still impact your ability to use Finale on new devices. 

2. Finale v27 to be included with Dorico Pro Crossgrades: We are currently working on a solution for all customers who have purchased or intend to purchase a Dorico Pro crossgrade to be able to download Finale v27. This will ensure that you can export your Finale files using MusicXML 4.0, the most robust version of MusicXML available. Thank you for your patience, we will provide more information soon.

 I wish they would just open source it.

Finale still has value. MM could sell it.

I would think some of the perpetual naysayers, even some outspoken ones on this forum would rejoice to see Finale go by the wayside. MM just gave you your opportunity to switch.

Dude, you sound like Trump whining about the "haters." No one cares. I certainly don't. And no, none of us want to see Finale disappear. That's why we were all concerned about the news yesterday. And yes, they could eventually sell it but from a business perspective, that makes little or no sense for anyone to purchase it and have the huge expense and task of redoing the entire code base, etc. MM didn't do that, and yes, it perhaps could have years ago. 

Dude, never want a drink of water until the well runs dry!

The fact remains like I always had said MM either didn't have the money or they didn't have the talent/knowledge to do anything significant with the legacy Finale code. Pure and simple.

It still has value but I suspect MM is too arrogant to let anyone else that has the ability and musical talent to own it. Almost like  the folks now who complained and bashed it are now crying.

I always had said MM either didn't have the money or they didn't have the talent/knowledge to do anything significant with the legacy Finale code. Pure and simple.

You always saying it doesn’t make it so. MakeMusic Cloud—was SmartScore—is big in the education sector. The Finale source code isn’t going anywhere.

I believe that Finale had become a decimal point for MM and Peaksware LLC, the $45B holding company that owns MM, Alfred and a number of other companies. They can well afford to leave the licensing servers turned on after 8/2024.

At least they’re telling us. Fender has been promising Notion 7, “coming soon” since 2021. Don Williams promised a maintenance update to Overture 5 in November 2020—still waiting—and Overture/Encore 6 since 2021.

How much does Dorico contribute to Yamaha’s bottom line? There was no mention of it in any of their rooms at NAMM last January.. I hope that Daniel and crew can keep it going but I’m not optimistic about the long run. Sibelius and MuseScore fit well into the long range goals of their companies so they aren’t going anywhere.

Finale and Encore are the devils I know the best and keeping an old Mac around that can run both is not a problem. Had my wife not accidentally sent one of my old Macs to recycling during an office remodel, I’d still be able to open my Deluxe Music Construction Set files (fortunately, all were converted to Overture, then MusicXML years ago). .

Bless their hearts, LilyPond released an update that finally incorporates 64bit binaries just a few days ago. Text based notation app to create “beautiful sheet music” with a 19th Century look. Ok… MusicXML? You’ve got to be kidding. Kind of heartwarming to know it’s still out there., I guess. Free and worth every cent.

I’ve lost count of the notation apps that I’ve purchased since my first Mac 40 years ago that no longer exist. DMCS, Rhapsody, MusicTime, Igor, Professional Composer, Mosaic, Encore… there are more.

@mike: I agree. Also would add Nightingale-never tried it but it looked interesting back in the day in ads in Macworld or something like that. 

I think MM did have the talent but didn't have sufficient resources to make it happen. It takes time and money to overhaul big software projects and if Finale was a loss leader or at best, budget-neutral, it would not continue to be developed. Which is exactly what has happened. Let's be honest-it was clearly not being developed in any significant fashion for at least the past year or two. When all that was mentioned were minor bug fixes in the future within that earlier Scoring Notes interview from, I think, NAAM, that was the handwriting on the wall. No major development was happening. I had contacted MM recently to f/u on some reports of bugs I sent a year ago or more, and they were clear that nothing was likely to be done for them. This was a few days before the formal announcement.

MIKE HALLORAN "Sibelius and MuseScore fit well into the long range goals of their companies so they aren’t going anywhere."

The way I see this is Hal Leonard vs Alfred, and MuseHub vs MMCloud. For both these pedagogical music behemoths, notation is not valued (MuseScore still free, Finale from cheap to the discard pile). Read: student-grade, high seat-count composition cloudware with only one operating system to deal with, and no commitment to the uncountable complexities of high-end, copyist-grade score production.

With most functional user improvements from third party developers, doesn't it seem Finale is already far down the road to open source? Of course, OS development is a huge hurdle for which an angel or private equity investor would be required.

David T, I did use Nightingale back in the day. Interesting, but either due to its own limitations, or my incompetency, I eventually went the NotePad/PrintMusic/Finale way.

David T. Unfortunately I
May need a new CPU before then. Still using my trusty old iMac Pro, but OLD is the key word here. Not an M chip processor.

David Maurand

MuseScore has always been free, so it being a commercially viable product has never been a part of the business model there.  That's a comparison to make.

As a F/OSS project, I would definitely bet more on MuseScore than Finale.  I don't think I'd use a Finale F/OSS project.  I'd rather pay for Dorico upgrades, which are fairly cheap, instead.  Finale as an OS Project is something I feel would be at high risk of forking due to the markets it was predominant in and the user base's [generally speaking] high amount of friction to any change they deem disruptive.

ERNEST BIGGS

I would think some of the perpetual naysayers, even some outspoken ones on this forum would rejoice to see Finale go by the wayside. MM just gave you your opportunity to switch.

Many of those people saw the writing on the wall years ago and invested in a different solution so that they didn't tie up even more of their work to a sinking ship and began the learning curve to switch sooner rather than later.

Not everyone is a software partisan, or has emotional ties to bits and bytes.

I understand [and don't fault] people sticking with it out of professional obligations, needs or requirements, though.

Most Naysayers who stuck around and complained about things did it out of respect for the product and the role it played in the industry.  It was because they'd probably have preferred it improved so they could continue to use it, rather than stagnate and necessitate them moving to an alternative solution.

I'm always happy to see products in niche markets that cannot compete die off so that those who are owned by companies willing to invest in development can get more users and be enabled to develop better, higher quality features.  I don't see a problem with that.

Compete, or die off and let those willing to compete duke it out in the market.

Jason Wick, MakeMusic Director of Product Development

Q: Will it go open source?
A: “It’s unlikely. I want to make sure people understand that Steinberg didn’t buy Finale; we have a partnership between our companies to try and give existing Finale users the best path forward for the long-term. When this specific partnership ends, Finale is still an asset that MakeMusic owns, and like any asset there are options around what you could do with it. At the moment, our focus is on our user base and working with Steinberg to facilitate migration and onboarding.”

"Most Naysayers who stuck around and complained about things did it out of respect for the product and the role it played in the industry.  It was because they'd probably have preferred it improved so they could continue to use it, rather than stagnate and necessitate them moving to an alternative solution."

Absolutely true except I wouldn't use the term "naysayers" but rather "bug reporters" since most of us really did want Finale to have a longer life expectancy and wanted it to do the things we need, and do it better, so we would not have to switch and learn another complex software package. I've been kicking the Dorico tires and some things are clearly faster than using Finale (the fact I can enter notes wherever I want in a measure, rather than having to fill in rests and then add a note later in a measure, is huge) and some things are a bit more complicated, but overall it is definitely a better program than Finale and certainly for someone new to a notation program. Unlearning Finale is a challenge. But doable.

Reply to Mike:
"Here's this afternoon's full announcement:

Clarifications on the initial announcement

1.  Finale authorization will remain available indefinitely: Please note that future OS changes can still impact your ability to use Finale on new devices. 

What I read from Chad Mathis was this:
"Finale authorization will remain active for the foreseeable future."

To my mind, "foreseeable future" is not the same as "indefinitely" and certainly not "forever."

As with many of you, I've used Finale since the early CODA days  back in the 90s, and still have those sumptuously beautiful boxes in which they came. It was an extremely difficult learning curve back then, but eventually the software and instructions and interface became more "musically intuitive."

I do not relish learning a new interface, whether Dorico or Muse...
I expect to continue using Finale v27 for as long as my computer (Windows platform) and those MM authorizations will allow.

:-)
Vanessa

I did use Nightingale back in the day…

Ahhh... Nightingale was one I was trying to remember—I had it, too. Wasn't that the one where you dragged individual notes and rests from a palette on the right into your staff or am I remembering some other app with a terrible interface? 

The way I see this is Hal Leonard vs Alfred, and MuseHub vs MMCloud. 

The name of the company is still Muse Group. Hal Leonard is one of their divisions just as MakeMusic is a division of Peaksware LLC. Muse Hub is one of their products that lets you purchase and install their various apps and libraries—including updating my copy of MuseScore Studio to 4.0 a few minutes ago. Its counterpart is the Steinberg Download Assistant. I don't see any functions equivalent to MakeMusic Cloud. As they put it:

Your gateway to creativity. A free hub for downloading the best Muse sounds and software.

 https://www.mu.se/

May need a new CPU before then. Still using my trusty old iMac Pro, but OLD is the key word here. Not an M chip processor.

I have licenses for 5 seats of Finale 27. It works on both my 2012 MacBook Pros, my wife's 2020 iMac, my 14 & 18 Core iMac Pros (both sold last year) — all Intel with System drives that can be replaced, BTW (cheaper to buy a new Mini but it can be done). It also runs quite well as my wife's M1 MacBook Air and my M2 Studio Utra. As long as Peaksware keeps the license servers running, I'm good and they are saying it will happen. As I posted earlier:

1.  Finale authorization will remain available indefinitely: Please note that future OS changes can still impact your ability to use Finale on new devices. 

I've been kicking the Dorico tires and some things are clearly faster than using Finale (the fact I can enter notes wherever I want in a measure, rather than having to fill in rests and then add a note later in a measure, is huge) and some things are a bit more complicated, but overall it is definitely a better program than Finale and certainly for someone new to a notation program. Unlearning Finale is a challenge. But doable.

One of Dorico's stated goals is to create a notation app that follows the principles laid down in Elaine Gould's Behind Bars: The Definitive Guide To Music Notation. Whether or not they intend to incorporate all 702 pages... I don't care but it's an ambitious task and knowing this helps explain a lot of what goes on under the hood. I have copies of the searchable online version and the print—right next to my 20 volume copy of The New Grove's Dictionary of Music and Musicians that we bought pre-publication in 1979 and may never open again.

Unfortunately, her book never went into much of contemporary notation and there's a lot missing in that regard. Though you can override almost anything in Dorico's Engraving mode, the fact that one has to can be frustrating for many users. Finale has always been much more flexible.

Yea, yea, I can get used to Dorico which I've had since 2018 but my brain whines, "Do I have to?"

I agree. I feel the same way. I don't care about being adherent to Gould, but am finding that it is the "Dorico way" for many things and while I can tweak them once I figure out how to do that, I do love Finale's flexibility. I don't like having to conform to a single way or design. 

What I read from Chad Mathis was this:
"Finale authorization will remain active for the foreseeable future."
To my mind, "foreseeable future" is not the same as "indefinitely" and certainly not "forever."

That is absolutely correct but those quotes are from MakeMusic, I re-posted one and you re-posted the other. They say the same thing. So what are you going to do about it?

Here are the long-term choices:
1) Keep a computer running Finale working for as long as you can so that reauthorization is never an issue.
2) Move on. We have assurances that we’ll have years but this may or may not be true.
3) … there really isn’t a third option.

Third option: load the current OS on a virtual machine and load Finale there. It should be fine until and unless your OS no longer allows virtual machines and that is unlikely for several years if not longer.