Michael Salter,

It is not clear (at least to me) what you mean.

Are you talking about a Cutaway Score?

I mean, so that the first two measures on the page display on all the staves, and the drum staff goes blank (Cutaway) during the following four measures on the page?

Could you post a picture of what you want?

Are we talking about a full score or the requirements for individual parts.

As Mike said, an image would be very helpful determining what you want.

Hi Peter,

Thank you for getting back to me so quickly. So to clarify, I have a full orchestra score (woodwinds, brass and strings) with a drum set. The score is about 30 pages long and on average there are about 5 measures per page for all the parts. There is a 16 bar passage where I would like to continue having all the orchestral parts at 5 measures per page but have the drum set only have 2 measures per page ( so independently fit the drum set measures in relationship to the other parts. Is this possible? I tried to do this but Finale glitches and sends me back to the first page of the score without fitting the drum set measures. I will send pictures shortly. Thanks!

Hi, here are a series of pics chronicling what I've been doing as well as the end result.

… There is a 16 bar passage where I would like to continue having all the orchestral parts at 5 measures per page but have the drum set only have 2 measures per page (so independently fit the drum set measures in relationship to the other parts) …

If I understand you correctly, you are talking about staggered barlines - right?

So that 2 measures in the drum set have the same duration as 5 measures in the other parts - right?

What about Measure Numbers? Are there Measure Numbers in the score?

Since the number of measures is not the same in all parts, using Measure Numbers may be a bad idea.

If Peter can help you manage the dual time signatures, I am happy for you.

Still, I cannot wonder why the need for different time sigs if the drummer isn't playing anything.

Hi Peter, yes that exactly right. The two measures of 8/4 would have the same duration on the score as five 3/4 measures.

Hi J Adrian, the drummer will be playing a figure. I want to write pattern of 5 notes over those bars of 8/4. In this passage the quarter note will stay the same which is why I want to fit two measures of 8/4 in the drums with the other parts having five measures of 3/4. It comes close to being equal.

And no, I won’t be using measure numbers in the score

… I want the drum staff to have two measures on a page and the rest of the parts and staffs to have six measures per page …

… In this passage the quarter note will stay the same which is why I want to fit two measures of 8/4 in the drums with the other parts having five measures of 3/4. It comes close to being equal …

This is confusing.

1) Do the other parts have six measures of 3/4 - or five measures of 3/4?

In the first post you wrote ‘six’, but in the second post you wrote five.

2) I do not understand how you get to the conclusion that “the quarter note will stay the same”.

Two measures of 8/4 equals 16 quarters.

Six measures of 3/4 equals 18 quarters, speed ratio 16/18 (= 8/9). The quarter note will not stay the same.

Five measures of 3/4 equals 15 quarters, speed ratio 16/15. The quarter note will not stay the same.

Please explain.

Sorry for the confusion. I guess I haven’t decided if it would be better to eventually fit the measures for this passage at 5 or 6. This passage is 16 bars of 3/4. There will be 6 measures of 8/4 in this passage. It comes out to the same amount of quarter notes…just a different way of barring them. Therefore the quarter note can remain the same.

Write the music in whatever way that ordinary musicians can understand and play. Any attempt to reinvent the wheel is asking for trouble.

With all due respect Mike I’m not asking for your compositional opinion. I just want to know if I can independently fit measures on a staff. Is it possible or not?

If you can’t answer this question I will ask somewhere else.

Michael Salter,

In that case the barlines will coincide every 24 quarters (= 3 measures of 8/4 = 8 measures of 3/4).

I think the layout will be easier for the conductor, if the coinciding barlines always happen at system breaks.

In case the layout gets too “crammed”, “tight”, with 24 quarters in a system, I would “spread out” the layout with 12 quarters in each system. That equals 4 measures of 3/4 = 1½ measures of 8/4.

Here comes a simple solution for {12 quarters in each system}.

But I do not know the actual music you are engraving.

Hence I can not know whether the following solution will work without problems:

1) Let the “real” time signature remain 3/4.

2) Lock the systems with 4 measures of 3/4 in each system.

3) In the drum set staff, in the Staff Attributes, in the pane Independent Elements, select Time Signature.

Now you can give the drum set staff a different time signature, without affecting the time signatures in the other staves.

4) Time Signature Tool.

In the drum set staff, change the time signature so that the “real” time signature remains 3/4, but the “display” time signature shows 8/4.

5) Staff Tool.

In the drum set staff, use a custom staff style to hide the 3/4 barlines that do not coincide with the 8/4 barlines.

6) Expression Tool.

Use shape expressions to add false 8/4 barlines with the same line thickness as the real barlines.

If you have any questions, let me know.

Hi Peter,

Thanks so much for sending these notes. I did try it but unfortunately it didn’t work. Finale still recognized the passage as being in 3/4 and wouldn’t allow me to create a tuplet in 5 over 8 beats. If you have any other suggestion please let me know…otherwise I’ll write to Finale to suggest allowing independent fitting of staves in the next round of upgrades. Thanks so much for all of your help and suggestions.

… pattern of 5 notes over those bars of 8/4 …

Sorry! I did not understand that you meant 5 notes of equal duration filling one measure of 8/4 (= a quintuplet).

In that case the solution is basically the same, only you make the “real” time signature 12/4 (displaying as 3/4), and insert a lot of false barlines.

Hey Peter! That’s exactly what I want to do!! Only when I tried it i couldn’t get it to work…

It looks like in the example you shared you’re in 8/4 in the drum part…but you said to make the real time signature 12/4, displaying as 3/4…is that right?

… It looks like in the example you shared you’re in 8/4 in the drum part…but you said to make the real time signature 12/4, displaying as 3/4. Is that right? …

Yes, that is right.

In the other parts (in 3/4) you have to insert a lot of false barlines (be careful with accidentals since the barlines are false; Finale does not understand that the false barlines are barlines).

In the drum part staff, select Time Signature as an Independent Element (just as in the other solution).

Then, in the drum staff (8/4), change the time signature to 12/4, but displaying as 8/4.

Insert a few false barlines.