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Hi all,

I've seen similar questions with answers, but this might be a bit different. I have a piece for alto sax and accompaniment. The piece moves through several keys. In one section, the piano is in the key of A Major. Accordingly, the alto sax would be in the key of... ?
Well, most band and brass musicians I've worked with tend to prefer a key signatures in flats rather than sharps.
Finale changes the alto sax to F#, but I want to make it Gb (see screenshot). Is this possible?
Remember, this is not for the entire piece; just a portion.

Thank you!
:-)
Nessa

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As you know, the default transposition for Alto Sax is Eb Transposition.

 

In the relevant portion of the piece I would use a custom staff style of D# Transposition:

 

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That is easy to make whichever way you or the musicians prefer. But as to why is interesting because it is all in your or their minds. You just don't see the key of Gb or F# very often. If it was a common key and played all the time, nobody would care.

I think it stems from the fact string players pitch goes up as they press on a string but a wind instrument players pitch goes down when the press a key or button.

F# is probably technically correct but I prefer ease and successful play over correctness.

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Thank you, Peter
That was a big help. I've always had difficulty with this feature but, for some reason, I was able to figure it out this time. The "Interval = 4" did not work, but after a little trial and error I finally understood that the "Key Alter" refers to chromatic scale of degree. So, the visual note of "Eb" ascending up 9 half steps lands on "C," which is the transposition for alto sax, M6.
I tried an interval of 12, and that took me up a full octave; so I worked my way down to an interval of 6, and that worked.

Again, many thanks. I am curious, though, what you mean by "In the relevant portion of the piece..."
The change I made affected the entire piece. Is it possible to localize the process to a given portion of the piece?
Here's my sequence of attempts in screenshots:

 

 

 

 

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Hi Ernie,

Yes, you hit the nail on the head: "I think it stems from the fact string players pitch goes up as they press on a string but a wind instrument players pitch goes down when the press a key or button.
"F# is probably technically correct but I prefer ease and successful play over correctness."

If a violinist is playing of the "G" string in a flat key, "Gb" would require moving to another string, whereas "G#" would allow for remaining on the same string--if desired.

The key of "A Major" is very common with strings, but for a band, transpositions would be into the keys of E Major, B Major, and F# Major. The same piece, transposed down a mere 1/2 step would allow for the keys of Eb, Bb, and F, which, from my experience would be met with gratitude from the band members. ;-)
:-)
Nessa

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Hi, again, Ernie,

After I replied I realized I might have seemed to be pontificating.

My intention was to re-emphasize your comments with thoughts that a novice might have the same problem and find this thread, and not be aware of some of these subtleties.

Hope I did not offend.
:-)
Nessa

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Hope I did not offend.

 

No, not at all. I think your explanation is in accord with what I think, too. IMHO, of the 12 major keys, F♯/G♭ is the only one that can be reasonably notated in two ways.

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… The "Interval = 4" did not work, but after a little trial and error I finally understood that the "Key Alter" refers to chromatic scale of degree. So, the visual note of "Eb" ascending up 9 half steps lands on "C," which is the transposition for alto sax, M6.
I tried an interval of 12, and that took me up a full octave; so I worked my way down to an interval of 6, and that worked.

Again, many thanks. I am curious, though, what you mean by "In the relevant portion of the piece..."
The change I made affected the entire piece. Is it possible to localize the process to a given portion of the piece? …

 

1) The “Interval” refers to the “vertical” displacement, measured in scale steps.

A vertical displacement of {4 scale steps} is the same as a displacement of {a fifth}.

 

2) The “Key Alter” refers to the accidentals in the key signature.

A value of -9 means {Add 9 flats - or subtract 9 sharps}.

 

3) Since the change you made, affected “the entire piece”, I suspect that you used the Staff Attributes.

But I suggested a Staff Style.

It is important that you understand the difference between Staff Style and Staff Attributes.

Staff Attributes are “global” (= for all the measures in the entire document).

Instead, use a custom Staff Style.

Staff Styles do not have to be “global”; you can apply a Staff Style “locally”.

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Thanks, Ernie

:-)
Nessa

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Hi Peter,

Thank you SO MUCH for the further clarification about the "Interval" and the "Key Alter"

I tried to find something in the online Users Manual about "Staff Style" and "Staff Attributes," re: global and local, but could not.

Would you please give me a nudge in the right direction?

:-)
Nessa

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… I tried to find something in the online Users Manual about "Staff Style" and "Staff Attributes," re: global and local, but could not.

Would you please give me a nudge in the right direction? …

 

To get there you must be in the Staff Tool.

 

As you have found out, you can get to the Staff Attributes by double-clicking a staff.

 

To get to Staff Styles:

Staff menu > Define Staff Styles…

 

To apply a staff style to a specific region, first select that specific region.

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Hi Peter,

Thank you--I've seen that box a few times but had yet to see the "Transposition" box.

So, I did as you said, selected a region, went to "Staff menu > Define Staff Styles…" (which I could also do with right-click), and clicked on the "Select" button just to the right of "Transposition."
I then applied the settings you gave, clicked on the "OKs", etc, but not change. I tried a variety of different settings, but to no effect.

Oh--I forgot to mention... before I did the above, I went to ScoreManager and returned the alto sax to it's default transposition.
Here's yet another screenshot for you.
:-)
Nessa

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First, create the (new) custom staff style.

To do so, begin by clicking the button ‘New’ (in your screen shot the button is located in the upper right corner).

Define the staff style, give it a name, and choose whether it should be Copyable, and whether it should be displayed in the context menu (in your screen shot these options are in the top pane).

 

Next, select the region where you need the staff style.

 

Last, apply your new, custom staff style to the selected region.

(Look in the Staff menu)

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Vanessa, I’m guessing that neither you nor Ernie play a transposing instrument in Bb or Eb. F# is never the preferred key if Gb is an option for instruments in flat keys. 

 

Sax players in rock and roll bands learn how to adjust.

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I do play trumpet and treble clef baritone. My instrument of choice is trombone bass clef but even then I play it in a British Brass Band which is read in treble clef. I play trombone in our civic orchestra which sees a lot of tenor clef and sharp key sigs.

I teach brass in our middle school. Like I said above, key sigs are really a mind thing. If you play long enough, you see them all, they are really not a bother. The only reason people see F# or Gb as a issue is, they just don't play in that key very often. Players and certain instruments like certain keys because they see those keys most often.

 

However, you are correct, I am not an alto sax player!

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Hi Mike,

Yes, you are correct. My instruments have been the piano and the baton--though primarily (now exclusively) I am only a composer.

That said, years ago I wrote a number of arrangements for jazz ensembles, in addition to symphonic winds, which is why I needed to know how to covert Finale's choice of F# to Gb for the Alto Sax when in the concert key of A Major. Thanks to Peter, I now know how.

I love the alto sax--two of my works are for alto sax and harp--surprisingly beautiful combination when the sax is played in what might be called the "orchestral style," as in Ravel or Glazunov, etc.
:-)
Nessa

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Peter!!!!!

Thank you, yet again, for your detailed explanation!!
I followed your directions and that section in F# is now flawlessly in the key of Gb.

One thing, though, I set the "Interval" to 6.

You are a great one!
:-)
Nessa

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… One thing, though, I set the "Interval" to 6 …

 

Oops, you are right.

The correct interval is 6 scale steps.

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:-)
Nessa

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... that section in F# is now flawlessly in the key of Gb.

 

Always compose/arrange for success.  No matter what the book(s) say is correct.

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